Green Car Reports: Model 3 quality is terrible

[John Lamoureux]

I think this review might have gotten lost in the snippiness. It's fair, and extremely important.

Robin

Someone else posted this video as well. I try to take all the fanboi and trolling comments in stride, as you're always going to have extreme opinions. I, for one, knew/know what I'm getting into. That doesn't change the fact that I'll be pissed and/or aggravated if my car ever leaves me stranded, but at least when I post the issue I would hope that people see it as my attempt to help Tesla improve.

I think most folks here want to see Tesla succeed, even if it means posting their own opinions about the quality of their vehicles.

 

[daniel]

I think this review might have gotten lost in the snippiness. It's fair, and extremely important.

Robin

I agree with what she says. Except that she says that such defects as a few people have experienced with Model 3 would not make it off the factory floor of any other car maker. I think that reading any car forum would reveal that no car maker is perfect.

What I'd really like to know is: What percentage of Model 3 cars have had to go back for service, and what's the industry average?

I think we should hold Tesla to a higher standard because as the leader in electric transportation, the perceived quality of Tesla cars is going to affect the general public's acceptance of electric cars overall. So far, the quality of mine seems excellent.

 

[Sportstick]

I agree with what she says. Except that she says that such defects as a few people have experienced with Model 3 would not make it off the factory floor of any other car maker. I think that reading any car forum would reveal that no car maker is perfect.

What I'd really like to know is: What percentage of Model 3 cars have had to go back for service, and what's the industry average?

I think we should hold Tesla to a higher standard because as the leader in electric transportation, the perceived quality of Tesla cars is going to affect the general public's acceptance of electric cars overall. So far, the quality of mine seems excellent.

The Industry Average (per JDPower 2017 Initial Quality Study at 3 months in service - essentially a measure of design and assembly) is 93 problems per 100 cars (US domestic) and 99 problems per 100 car (all imported brands). The best in industry was Kia with 72 problems per 100 cars (the most cars with no problems reported at all). Smart was the lowest with 216 problems per 100 cars, or roughly 2 problems for each car. That context may help evaluate what current buyers of Model 3 are experiencing.

 

[John Lamoureux]

The Industry Average (per JDPower 2017 Initial Quality Study at 3 months in service - essentially a measure of design and assembly) is 93 problems per 100 cars (US domestic) and 99 problems per 100 car (all imported brands). The best in industry was Kia with 72 problems per 100 cars (the most cars with no problems reported at all). Smart was the lowest with 216 problems per 100 cars, or roughly 2 problems for each car. That context may help evaluate what current buyers of Model 3 are experiencing.

What constitutes a "problem" in their study?

 

[Sportstick]

What constitutes a "problem" in their study?

Via a large sample survey, they specifically inquire if any issues have arisen as follows (from their site)

"The study examines 233 problems, which are organized into eight categories:

• Exterior
• Seats
• Driving Experience
• Engine/Transmission
• Features/Controls/Displays (FCD)
• Interior
• Heating, Ventilation, and Air Conditioning (HVAC)
• Audio/Communication/Entertainment/Navigation (ACEN)"

 

[John Lamoureux]

Via a large sample survey, they specifically inquire if any issues have arisen as follows (from their site)

"The study examines 233 problems, which are organized into eight categories:

• Exterior
• Seats
• Driving Experience
• Engine/Transmission
• Features/Controls/Displays (FCD)
• Interior
• Heating, Ventilation, and Air Conditioning (HVAC)
• Audio/Communication/Entertainment/Navigation (ACEN)"

Got it. I guess from my perspective that can still lead to subjective responses. I.e. the seats are uncomfortable or the ride is too bumpy. Not an "issue" per se, but something that still makes them unhappy.

 

[Sportstick]

Got it. I guess from my perspective that can still lead to subjective responses. I.e. the seats are uncomfortable or the ride is too bumpy. Not an "issue" per se, but something that still makes them unhappy.

Possibly, but when dealing with humans, all is subjective...one person's BSR is another's "I didn't hear anything." This is about the best source available and is used by the OEMs. When I worked at one, we had major JDP presentations for various studies each year.

 

[RiverBrick]

Ironically, Green Car Reports' best vehicle to buy is currently the Pacific hybrid. Except you have to jump through hoops to buy it in some places in North America and there was a major recall for the vehicle stopping dead in traffic.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

Ironically, Green Car Reports' best vehicle to buy is currently the Pacific hybrid. Except you have to jump through hoops to buy it in some places in North America and there was a major recall for the vehicle stopping dead in traffic.

Another thing to keep in mind. The Pacific is built on an already established platform, as many hybrid cars are. This is a great practice in that it eliminates many of the issues that would otherwise be present. The Model 3 is an entirely new product from the ground up. There is more to work through to begin with.

Dan

 

[bro1999]

If Tesla would participate in the JD Power surveys, that would help gain some insight. But Tesla doesn't participate for whatever reason.

 

[daniel]

The Industry Average (per JDPower 2017 Initial Quality Study at 3 months in service - essentially a measure of design and assembly) is 93 problems per 100 cars (US domestic) and 99 problems per 100 car (all imported brands). The best in industry was Kia with 72 problems per 100 cars (the most cars with no problems reported at all). Smart was the lowest with 216 problems per 100 cars, or roughly 2 problems for each car. That context may help evaluate what current buyers of Model 3 are experiencing.

What constitutes a "problem" in their study?

I guess what I'd like to see is the count of number of times the car needs service other than routine maintenance. That seems like a more subjective measure. One might also count the number of cars the maker had to take back under the provisions of the state's lemon law.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

One thing to point out in the problems per 100 vehicle reports is they include complaints about UI/UX issues. As an example customers had all kinds of problems with the Ford Sync UI/UX, but it was just hard to use. It's not that there was anything really wrong with it though. As in the hardware itself wasn't bad.

For me I don't care so much about UI/UX glitches as I expect those to be fixed in an update.

But, I do care a lot about creaks, groans/, loud-buzzing, etc.

Usually I go various forums to figure out the actual issues people are having with the car before I buy versus paying too much attention in some report.

With the Model 3 what I've seen is complaints about the HVAC fan making too much noise even on low settings, and wind noise issues. So I'm hoping to test drive a Model 3 before actually ordering it.

 

[DR61]

As an example customers had all kinds of problems with the Ford Sync UI/UX, but it was just hard to use. It's not that there was anything really wrong with it though. As in the hardware itself wasn't bad.

As a former owner of one of these (2013 C-Max Energi), I think your description is not really correct. The hardware was very slow, and in addition there were numerous software bugs. I did not think it was difficult to use when it worked. There were some updates that could be done remotely, but they were difficult to do. At least one update required a dealer visit as I recall.

 

[T34ME]

With the Model 3 what I've seen is complaints about the HVAC fan making too much noise even on low settings, and wind noise issues. So I'm hoping to test drive a Model 3 before actually ordering it.

I was able to play with a model 3 for about an hour last January. I experimented with all the systems. Regarding HVAC fan, it is loud on the high setting.......as it should be and it forces the ventilation at hurricane speed as it should. At lower speeds, the fan is just a whisper. I think what some people are experiencing is the HVAC in an EV for the first time. The model 3 is relatively quiet and I am sure it sounds louder than the fan in an ICE car because the noise is not covered by the sound of an ICE. In reality, the model 3 HVAC fan noise is about the same as in an ICE car in my opinion.

 

[T34ME]

mod note: 7 posts moved to snippiness. Calling someone a troll is an ad hominem attack and is prohibited. Trolling is defined as making posts for the sole purpose of eliciting emotional reactions in others. This behavior is also prohibited.

Any more ad hominem attacks will result in limitation of posting rights. And any clear trolling will result in a ban.

That is fine, I can live with that. Calling someone a "fanboy" or "fanboi" is the same as calling someone a "troll", is an ad hominem attack for the sole purpose of eliciting emotional reactions in others. That behavior should also be prohibited for the same reason.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

I think this review might have gotten lost in the snippiness. It's fair, and extremely important.

Robin

I don't disagree with her points on Tesla's quality, but I wouldn't say it's fair either.

Fair would be applying the same criticism to other manufacturers. Granted, it wouldn't be about quality problems, it would be about either not building EVs, or phoning in the EVs they are building, but it's the same basic idea. The comment she had about not allowing general press access I believe also applies to other manufacturers at times who also restrict media access to their new cars, but again she limited it to Tesla, which I think is unfair.

If she comes out with 5+ minute videos chiding Nissan and GM on building sub-par EVs, and chiding every other large manufacturer on hardly building any EVs (which is I'm guessing at least an hour's worth of content), then yes, it's fair. Until she does that, no, it isn't fair.

 

[ohmman]

That is fine, I can live with that. Calling someone a "fanboy" or "fanboi" is the same as calling someone a "troll", is an ad hominem attack for the sole purpose of eliciting emotional reactions in others. That behavior should also be prohibited for the same reason.

It is.

 

[daniel]

... Calling someone a "fanboy" or "fanboi" is the same as calling someone a "troll", is an ad hominem attack for the sole purpose of eliciting emotional reactions in others. That behavior should also be prohibited for the same reason.

I call myself a Tesla fanboy. ("Fanboi" should not be permitted on the grounds that it's spelled wrong.) I was intrigued by Tesla from the very beginning. I flew down from Spokane to CA and visited their headquarters when the Roadster was still under development, and they gave me a ride in a prototype. It was very uncomfortable with the seats leaning wayyyyy back, and the cooling system was looooouuuud! Some 4 or 5 years later, tired of the lack of power in my Zap Xebra (I was driving electric before the Roadster went on sale to the public) I flew to Seattle and test-drove a 2.5 Roadster. Such an improvement over the prototype!!! I've been driving my Roadster for almost 7 years.

I'm willing to put up with a lot to be a part of this, so in spite of some complaints about the Model 3 design, I'm really happy with the car. I will tell everyone who will listen (including especially Tesla, if I can find an email address to send suggestions to) what's good and what's bad about the car, because I think they can make it better, and with our feedback I think they will.

So, yes, fanboy here, and I don't regard that as an insult, as long as it is applied where it is true.

(By contrast, I'm pretty much locked into the Apple universe because the gadgets work together, but I'm not an apple fanboy. I just think their phones/tablets/computers suit me better than the alternatives.)

But Tesla, now this is a company that's out to make the world a better place. And while they definitely need to improve their quality, and improve the UI, the Model 3 is a really nice car.

 

[N5329K]

I don't disagree with her points on Tesla's quality, but I wouldn't say it's fair either.

Fair would be applying the same criticism to other manufacturers. Granted, it wouldn't be about quality problems, it would be about either not building EVs, or phoning in the EVs they are building, but it's the same basic idea. The comment she had about not allowing general press access I believe also applies to other manufacturers at times who also restrict media access to their new cars, but again she limited it to Tesla, which I think is unfair.

If she comes out with 5+ minute videos chiding Nissan and GM on building sub-par EVs, and chiding every other large manufacturer on hardly building any EVs (which is I'm guessing at least an hour's worth of content), then yes, it's fair. Until she does that, no, it isn't fair.

I think if you visit the Transport Evolved page on You Tube, you'll find she covers most, if not all, the things you'd like her to cover. She especially has no use for VW's endless lineup of non-production concept cars, Toyota fuel cells, or Honda EV's with ridiculously short range.
Robin

 

[rsomrek]

I'm not yet an owner, still anxiously awaiting config. But, I will say a lot of what I've seen here and elsewhere is really similar to what I've experienced before.

This feels the same. I don't think there's any real overriding issue with the Model 3 itself, but the first batches are always going to have some number of issues. I don't think that's an exclusively Tesla thing. If that bugs you, you should wait a year.

I'm going to have to say that all of us that have anxiously awaited the configuration email are willing to accept a certain level of 'glitch' in build production - perhaps weighted toward those that are fixed through an OTA update. It's a little disconcerting to read about headlights out of alignment with the front of the car, frunk lids that lie below the rest of the front of the car, mis-aligned panels with varying widths between panels. I'll be the first to admit that most reports indicate no problem in these areas. It's worrying to think I won't be so lucky and will have the story to tell about repeated trips back to the service center. While it's comforting to know that these issues are generally handled adequately, it still takes time and aggravation to settle such issues and takes a bit of the shine off a car that you've been so enthusiastic about.

You say "if that bug you, you should wait a year." Remember we've been waiting two years now. It shouldn't be too much to expect that the most egregious of the types of production flaws mentioned should not be an issue.