Green Hydrogen

[mspohr]

Hydrogen might be carbon-free but it can still damage California's climate

Luckily, California has already created a variety of world-class regulatory programs to monitor and reduce greenhouse gas emissions. By adding hydrogen to the list of regulated greenhouse gases, the state Legislature can immediately put regulators to work tracking hydrogen emissions and making sure SoCalGas, DWP and others only build new hydrogen projects when they’re both necessary and climate-safe. This approach will also focus researchers and entrepreneurs on improving our limited tools for preventing and detecting hydrogen leaks.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Hydrogen might be carbon-free but it can still damage California's climate

Luckily, California has already created a variety of world-class regulatory programs to monitor and reduce greenhouse gas emissions. By adding hydrogen to the list of regulated greenhouse gases, the state Legislature can immediately put regulators to work tracking hydrogen emissions and making sure SoCalGas, DWP and others only build new hydrogen projects when they’re both necessary and climate-safe. This approach will also focus researchers and entrepreneurs on improving our limited tools for preventing and detecting hydrogen leaks.

"Hydrogen: Making Natural Gas Look Safe."

 

[CrazyRabbit]

I have doubts about the technical merits of hydrogen, and whether it will compete against other bio-fuels. I also suspect that HVDC is a better use of funds to solve intermittency problems.

But whatever. Certainly vastly better than subsidizing diesel

We need about a week of stored energy. HVDC will not solve the problem when a cold front, like URI two years ago, drops Down the middle of the continent. East coast grid was having rolling blackouts along with Texas. I agree we need HVDC, but we also need stored fuel.

 

[CrazyRabbit]

Agreed, but there is another issue that is not discussed by the green hydrogen dreamers: A factory that only runs when clean electricity is in excess makes for an expensive factory. Imagine a factory that operates some three hours a day on average.

We need more excess renewable capacity. so hydrogen will be made continually, but much more when we have large excess energy. Well if you want to be entirely renewable.

 

[CrazyRabbit]

Posted over in another forum from another member:

Tesla Powerwall Rival Seeks to Bring Hydrogen Into Your Home
-$24,620 USD
-40 kWh usable capacity
-only 5 kW (charge and discharge) real power, max continuous - so this wont be enough to run AC in most homes
-reported installs to begin in June 2021 in Australia
-don't see efficiency numbers
-they claim 30 year life but same 10 year warranty as Powerwall
-uses low pressure metal hydride for storage
-unclear what maintenance issues there will be, at a minimum requires a water supply with purification unit

The article noted:

...many household solar arrays may not generate enough electricity to run the system efficiently...​

So if efficiency is really lowsy, like <50%, also wont make sense to do this in lieu of batteries at this time. Another reason why hydrogen, if it does ultimately make sense, will start at larger scale first. Still interesting to see where this goes.


Lavo – Changing the way people live with energy

But if I could store 1Mwh of hydrogen and use excess solar in spring and fall, that would work.. size of storage ignored.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

We need about a week of stored energy. HVDC will not solve the problem when a cold front, like URI two years ago, drops Down the middle of the continent. East coast grid was having rolling blackouts along with Texas. I agree we need HVDC, but we also need stored fuel.

Seba's Rethink X analysis says 35 to 90 hours of batteries (depending on location) is enough if you install a lot of excess generation instead.
The principle is that by having so much excess generation capacity, the lows are higher so you don't need as much storage and it gives you _extra_ available energy most of the time.

I just question how well you could economically use that access.

For storage I think we could end up with methanation instead of storing hydrogen, just because we'd already have all the natural gas infrastructure we'd need to use it.

 

[mspohr]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/04/business/energy-environment/clean-energy-hydrogen.html?smid=nytcore-android-share

Hydrogen is magical — when you burn it you release water, so there are no carbon emissions to warm the planet,” said one of the scientists, Jacques Pironon, a senior researcher and professor at the University of Lorraine. “We think we’ve uncovered one of the largest deposits of natural hydrogen anywhere in the world.”

Natural hydrogen, also called white hydrogen because of its purity, could be a game changer, scientists say, because it is a potential source of clean energy continuously generated by the earth. Hydrogen reservoirs form when heated water meets iron-rich rocks. According to the U.S. Geological Survey, just a small fraction of these deposits could provide enough clean energy for hundreds of years.

It Could Be a Vast Source of Clean Energy, Buried Deep Underground https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/04/...ergy-hydrogen.html?smid=nytcore-android-share

 

[mspohr]

Biden’s New Hydrogen Rules Are Here. They’re Way Bigger Than Hydrogen.

To qualify for lucrative tax credits under the Inflation Reduction Act, would-be hydrogen producers will have to power themselves with “clean electricity” — and that’s not easy.

heatmap.news

On Friday, the first phase of that battle ended — and the side supported by most environmental groups claimed a provisional victory. The Biden administration proposed strict rules governing the tax credit, designed to ensure that only zero-carbon electricity meeting rigorous standards can be used to make subsidized hydrogen. The rules, which some industry groups allege could stunt the field in its infancy, will have far-reaching consequences not only for hydrogen itself, but for how America’s power grid prepares for an age of abundant, zero-carbon electricity. It will create a system for organizing clean electricity that could soon determine how companies, consumers, and the federal government buy and sell that electricity — even when it has nothing to do with hydrogen.

Earlier this year, climate groups proposed that any clean electricity used to make hydrogen had to meet three requirements: It had to come from a truly new source of power on the grid; it had to generate power at the same time that it was used; and it had to be produced on essentially the same grid where it was used. The Biden administration largely adopted those requirements in Friday’s proposal. On a briefing call with reporters ahead of the rule's release, Deputy Secretary of the Treasury Wally Adeyemo was effusive about the new rule’s benefits. “We’ve developed a structure that will drive innovation and create good-paying jobs in this emerging industry while strengthening our energy security and reducing emissions in hard-to-transition sectors of the economy,” he said.

 

[SageBrush]

it had to generate power at the same time that it was used

Why ?

Otherwise I congratulate the Biden admin on provisions to prevent subsidy of dirty hydrogen.

climate groups proposed that any clean electricity used to make hydrogen had to meet three requirements: It had to come from a truly new source of power on the grid; it had to generate power at the same time that it was used; and it had to be produced on essentially the same grid where it was used.

Btw, just a stray thought: can the hydrgen lobby make heat from burning fossils and claim that it is not power ? I'm pretty sure that hydrogen can be produced with smaller amounts of electricity if the reactions are carried out at high temperature. Along the same vein of thought, will the subsidy be allowed if clean electricity is used to crack methane ?

 

[mspohr]

Why ?

Otherwise I congratulate the Biden admin on provisions to prevent subsidy of dirty hydrogen

I think that supports the goal of ensuring existing generation is not used for hydrogen.
They really want to ensure the H2 is made with new renewable energy, not shifted in time or space from existing sources.
I think this is a good rule for this generous subsidy.

 

[SageBrush]

I think that supports the goal of ensuring existing generation is not used for hydrogen.

That is dealt with in a separate provision

They really want to ensure the H2 is made with new renewable energy, not shifted in time or space from existing sources.
I think this is a good rule for this generous subsidy.

Sort of. If the admin was truly clued in, it would recognize that hydrogen falls into the category of stored energy and write subsidy rules that are tech agnostic for clean energy storage, so long as they themselves meet carbon emissions limits. On a level playing field (hah!), I think battery storage will do to hydrogen what wind/sun has done to nuclear: beat it pure and simple on LCOE

 

[mspohr]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/22/climate/hydrogen-tax-credits.html?unlocked_article_code=1.H00.9gJR.rXlRBe33hlKD&smid=nytcore-android-share

To qualify for the full tax credit, companies would typically need to use clean electricity from newly built sources, such as wind and solar farms, to run electrolyzers that split water into oxygen and hydrogen. Starting in 2028, those electrolyzers would have to run during the same hours that the wind or solar farms were operating. Many hydrogen developers and environmental groups praised the proposal. Without those restrictions, they said, hydrogen producers could draw vast amounts of power from the existing grid and trigger a spike in greenhouse gas emissions if coal- or gas-fired power plants had to run more often.

Many hydrogen developers and environmental groups praised the proposal. Without those restrictions, they said, hydrogen producers could draw vast amounts of power from the existing grid and trigger a spike in greenhouse gas emissions if coal- or gas-fired power plants had to run more often.

Most of America’s electricity still comes from coal and natural gas plants, so if a company were simply to plug a bunch of electrolyzers into the existing grid to make hydrogen, emissions would very likely rise. Similarly, if a hydrogen company tried to use electricity from an existing wind or solar farm, other coal or gas plants might have to run more often to compensate for the lost power. Without safeguards, several studies suggested, the tax credits could inadvertently lead to hundreds of millions of tons of extra carbon dioxide being emitted.

 

[SageBrush]

^^ That makes good sense. Thanks

What are the details of a partial credit ?

 

[mspohr]

New Hydrogen Pipeline Vs HVDC Study Less Wrong, More Clearly Shows Hydrogen Uneconomic - CleanTechnica

Their data makes it clear that there are no places where hydrogen pipelines make sense compared to HVDC, but they refuse to say it.

cleantechnica.com

 

[mspohr]

RMI Has Fallen Into The Hydrogen For Energy Pit Again - CleanTechnica

Hydrogen is an industrial feedstock with annual green house gas emissions in the scale of all of aviation globally, one to 1.5 billion tons of CO2e.

cleantechnica.com

In this world, the world that is actually emerging, the demand for burnable fuels is restricted to very specific use cases: long haul aviation, long haul maritime shipping and some edge cases in chemical processing. Biomass requirements for those uses cases to create the fuels is sufficient and diverts waste biomass which is a very large source of methane emissions to carbon-neutral or carbon-negative biofuels. They will continue to cost more than current fossil fuels, two to three times as much.

And what is reality? All ground transportation will electrify, including cars, light trucks, buses, trains, farm equipment, mining equipment and construction equipment. It’s already starting in all of those segments, with only North America lagging on rail electrification. When mining giants Rio Tinto, BHP and Fortescue call the coin toss for battery electric mining equipment in electrified mines with no hydrogen, the heavy duty ground question is settled.

Meanwhile, in Germany a major industry, academic and governmental working group series started with the assumption that there would be retail hydrogen gas pipelines everywhere, so truck stops would get it as cheaply as it is possible to get. That was based on the flawed assumption that hydrogen would replace natural gas for commercial and residential heating, which 54 independent studies and counting have put a stake in. Even then, battery electric won out in the working group specifically tasked with trucking, but not in the working group tasked with synthetic fuels which was dominated by engine manufacturers who would go out of business if reality intruded.

All inland shipping will electrify. Most short sea shipping will electrify. Transoceanic shipping tonnage will drop as noted, will continue to apply efficiency measures and will still require burnable fuels, just vastly lower amounts. Most flights within continents will electrify. Aviation growth will not be 4% CAGR as IATA and Boeing would love to believe. Higher low-carbon fuel costs, flat flight demand in the west, declining population growth with a likely peak between 2050 and 2070, slower growth of affluence in the developing world than experienced in China for the past 40 years, and massive diversion of potential aviation miles to high speed rail means projections of massive growth are simply wrong. Maritime shipping energy demand falls, aviation demand rises, but very slowly.

 

[mspohr]

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/iea-lowers-renewables-forecast-clean-hydrogen-2024-02-01/

Hydrogen-dedicated renewable energy capacity is expected to grow by 45 GW between 2022 and 2028, some 35% lower than forecast a year ago, the International Energy Agency (IEA) said in its latest Renewables report.
There is growing political momentum for low-emission hydrogen but actual implementation has been held up by uncertain demand outlooks, a lack of clarity in regulatory frameworks, and a lack of infrastructure to deliver hydrogen to end users, the IEA said in an emailed response to questions.

 

[mspohr]

Hydrogen For Energy Types Are Getting More And More Angry - CleanTechnica

As the hydrogen for energy hype bubble has started to leak, an indicator of the end times for hydrogen energy has started to emerge, anger and hostility.

cleantechnica.com

Over the past year or so, as the hydrogen for energy hype bubble has started to leak badly, a clear indicator of the end times for hydrogen energy proponents has started to emerge, anger and hostility. Why is this a clear indicator?

Yes, when people are bombarded by data, facts and logic which contradict their biases, they feel uncomfortable. They are stressed. If they don’t resolve this by embracing it, considering the facts and logic and improving their positions to accommodate reality, then it builds up. That was happening more and more to climate change deniers a decade ago and they were lashing out enough for it to be obvious even to me and I’m kind of oblivious to most of that kind of thing.

 

[mspohr]

Can hydrogen overtake batteries in cars? “The answer is no,” said Liebreich, without a moment’s hesitation. Carmakers betting on a large share for hydrogen are “just wrong”, and heading for an expensive disappointment, he added. The key problem for hydrogen cars is not the fuel cell but actually getting the clean hydrogen where it is needed. The gas is highly flammable – with all the safety concerns that entails – must be stored under pressure and leaks easily. It also carries less energy per unit volume than fossil fuels, meaning it would require many times more tankers unless on-site electrolysers are used.

Will hydrogen overtake batteries in the race for zero-emission cars?

In part six of our series exploring myths surrounding EVs, we weigh up what will be the power of the future

www.theguardian.com

 

[SageBrush]

Can hydrogen overtake batteries in cars? “The answer is no,” said Liebreich, without a moment’s hesitation. Carmakers betting on a large share for hydrogen are “just wrong”, and heading for an expensive disappointment, he added. The key problem for hydrogen cars

10 years ago H2 cars were already a poor wager that informed people knew to stay away from, even with the Japanese and US Gov support of R&D. Since then battery density has improved 50%, cost per kWh of cells has dropped 10x, and charging has improved 5x. On the H2 side, fuel cost has increased 3x and well publicized incidents of H2 explosions have been recorded.

In California, the only state with any H2 fueling infrastructure to speak of, *EV is outselling H2 cars by 450:1, and that is despite a $15,000 fuel credit from Toyota for the MIrai. Once the fuel credit is finished, the market value of an H2 car approaches a box of cold cereal.

H2 is still getting some coverage because of the immense money and influence of the fossil fuel lobbies and idiot politicians. On its merits, there has been nothing to talk about for 30 years.

 

[mspohr]

Gruppendenken

German Energy Agency Dena Is Just As Subject To Hydrogen Gruppendenken As JRC & PIK - CleanTechnica

Germans, held up as the epitome of hard-headed and disciplined engineers, have a societal failure of critical reasoning or evaluation of consequences.

cleantechnica.com