Green New Deal

[juliusa]

You can ignore that and just look at 1830 to 1980 and pretend that will continue forever when the trend since 1987 has been dramatically different.

Now - you are right - I should never say never. And maybe the population will climb more aggressively at sometime due to some technologic innovation

Yes, there will always be some short-term fluctuation - just like surface temperature increase slowed from 1998 to 2012.

"Technologic" innovation? Perhaps curing cancer and heart disease? Providing health care to all (everyone on the world)? Eliminating poverty and famine? Eliminating war? Reducing infant mortality rate? (rate in India is 5x the US, China is 1.5x)

Other than uranium/nuclear all of the energy we use today is in fact solar,

Yep. And the solar energy that reaches the earth is finite. Much of what reaches the earth is already used - to grow food and sequester carbon, among other things.

10 years out. What government is that?

I guess ones that are not elected.
Our government at least scores the cost of legislation over 10 years, but you are absolutely right - their time frame is the next election.

 

[jimm01]

Yep. And the solar energy that reaches the earth is finite. Much of what reaches the earth is already used - to grow food and sequester carbon, among other things.

The Earth’s average albedo is about 0.3, so on average 70 percent of solar radiation is absorbed (most is converted to heat). No so ironic is the lost of the polar ice caps lowers the Earth's albedo as snow, ice, and clouds have high albedos and reflect more energy than they absorb. (0.7 to 0.9). The Earth's lands and seas have low albedos (0.1 to 0.4).

 

[juliusa]

Behind the Rise of U.S. Solar Power, a Mountain of Chinese Coal

The West’s transition to renewable energy relies heavily on China’s low-cost, high-emissions industry, and governments and companies are looking for changes at the source.

www.wsj.com

Solar panel installations are surging in the U.S. and Europe as Western countries seek to cut their reliance on fossil fuels.

But the West faces a conundrum as it installs panels on small rooftops and in sprawling desert arrays: Most of them are produced with energy from carbon-dioxide-belching, coal-burning plants in China.

 

[JRP3]

Yep. And the solar energy that reaches the earth is finite. Much of what reaches the earth is already used - to grow food and sequester carbon, among other things.

Good thing we only need a small fraction of that sunlight to power the entire grid then.

 

[JRP3]

Behind the Rise of U.S. Solar Power, a Mountain of Chinese Coal

The West’s transition to renewable energy relies heavily on China’s low-cost, high-emissions industry, and governments and companies are looking for changes at the source.

www.wsj.com

Solar panel installations are surging in the U.S. and Europe as Western countries seek to cut their reliance on fossil fuels.

But the West faces a conundrum as it installs panels on small rooftops and in sprawling desert arrays: Most of them are produced with energy from carbon-dioxide-belching, coal-burning plants in China.

Irrelevant as the panels "payback" those emissions in a few years, and as more solar is added to the grid less carbon is used in their production. There is no "conundrum" other than in the minds of fear mongering opponents to renewables.

 

[juliusa]

Good thing we only need a small fraction of that sunlight to power the entire grid then.

Yep - in about 20 years should be able to provide enough power for the current grid demand.

In 20 years electricity will have replaced fossil fuels for cars, airplanes, heating, and everything else - oh, and don't forget population growth.

 

[JRP3]

Missing the point as usual, purposely I expect. You tried to imply that the sunlight reaching the earth was "already used", as if that should be a concern. It's not, and a ridiculous point to even try and bring up.

 

[jimm01]

Stanford University paper outlining a roadmap for 139 countries to transition to 100 percent renewable energy.

100% Clean and Renewable Wind, Water, and Sunlight All-Sector Energy Roadmaps for 139 Countries of the World

We develop roadmaps to transform the all-purpose energy infrastructures (electricity, transportation, heating/cooling, industry, agriculture/forestry/…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[jimm01]

Missing the point as usual, purposely I expect. You tried to imply that the sunlight reaching the earth was "already used", as if that should be a concern. It's not, and a ridiculous point to even try and bring up.

The irony is the CO2 emission into the atmosphere actually demonstrate this fact.

 

[juliusa]

Missing the point as usual, purposely I expect. You tried to imply that the sunlight reaching the earth was "already used", as if that should be a concern. It's not, and a ridiculous point to even try and bring up.

Much of the sunlight that hits the earth is used to grow food and sequester carbon. Solar energy that hits the earth is a finite resource.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Much of the sunlight that hits the earth is used to grow food and sequester carbon. Solar energy that hits the earth is a finite resource.

Available solar energy exceeds, by a very large margin, the energy needed for agriculture.
In addition, as agrivoltaic research shows, you can combine the two. For some crops it _increases_ yield.

 

[mspohr]

Available solar energy exceeds, by a very large margin, the energy needed for agriculture.
In addition, as agrivoltaic research shows, you can combine the two. For some crops it _increases_ yield.

Since well over half of plant agriculture is wasted on food for animal agriculture, the easiest path to food security is to eat less meat.

 

[eevee-fan]

Takes 10 lb Of plants to make 1 lb of meat, easy to feed 10x people with a diet change. The anti abortion folks must support these because they cause population growth with their beliefs.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Since well over half of plant agriculture is wasted on food for animal agriculture, the easiest path to food security is to eat less meat.

Since people could easily have continued to eat a low-meat diet, it's highly unlikely that it will be reversed without a technological breakthrough in artificial meat.

 

[juliusa]

Takes 10 lb Of plants to make 1 lb of meat, easy to feed 10x people with a diet change.

Ok - so only 100x in increase in agriculture to go assuming we change to a plant-based diet.

For some crops it _increases_ yield.

Increases?? I think physics says no, and I can't find anything to support this. Got a link?

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Takes 10 lb Of plants to make 1 lb of meat, easy to feed 10x people with a diet change. The anti abortion folks must support these because they cause population growth with their beliefs.

In developed countries at least, access to abortion doesn't change the number of children.

Global population has been forecast to peak somewhere between 9.7 billion to 10.9 billion. It's currently estimated around 7.8 billion.
The decline is driven by economics.

 

[juliusa]

Global population has been forecast to peak somewhere between 9.7 billion to 10.9 billion. It's currently estimated around 7.8 billion.
The decline is driven by economics.

GND fixes that - nothing driven by economics anymore.

 

[jimm01]

Ok - so only 100x in increase in agriculture to go assuming we change to a plant-based diet.

Increases?? I think physics says no, and I can't find anything to support this. Got a link?

Any increase in yield will be offset by drought and excessive heat. This has already happened in once arable areas of the planet. Also, heartier unediblable plants, or these with little or no nutrition, will flourish. Today, the spread of poisonous plants like Giant Hogweed, Queen Anne's Lace, and Poison Hemlock are migrating into areas then never inhabited before, and plants like poison ivy, oak, and sumac thrive on raised CO2 levels.

 

[eevee-fan]

Any increase in yield will be offset by drought and excessive heat. This has already happened in once arable areas of the planet. Also, heartier unediblable plants, or these with little or no nutrition, will flourish. Today, the spread of poisonous plants like Giant Hogweed, Queen Anne's Lace, and Poison Hemlock are migrating into areas then never inhabited before, and plants like poison ivy, oak, and sumac thrive on raised CO2 levels.

Looks like an opportunity to explore new plant species. Puffer fish is poisonous but you can still eat it if you prepare it right. LOL

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Ok - so only 100x in increase in agriculture to go assuming we change to a plant-based diet.

Increases?? I think physics says no, and I can't find anything to support this. Got a link?

An example article referring to one study:

Agrivoltaics scores impressive triple win, but some food safety concerns remain

A win-win is always welcome. But what about a win-win-win? Researchers say that’s what’s possible with agrivoltaics, a groundbreaking system that combines

www.foodsafetynews.com

Basically, some crops grow better in partial sun.
Bonus: the partial shading from PV reduces evaporation, improving irrigation efficiency.

I don't understand what you mean by 100x increase in argiculture. The population will peak mid century and then decline. Humanity just needs to continue to improve agriculture to make it sustainable.