Head of EV sales/strategy for BMW interview with AutoGuide

[David99]

I take Superchargers over anything slower of course, but heck I take any DC charger over whatever L2 is out there as they are pretty much limited to 7 kW. If they want to install chargers that are 4 to 6 times as fast as L2, I'm all for it. I'll get an adapter and use them.

But overall, the charging infrastructure is overrated. We will never need as many chargers as we need gas stations. EVs are charged 80-90% at home or at work. The actual need for public chargers is not that high and will drop even more as batteries become larger in capacity.

 

[neroden]

I take Superchargers over anything slower of course, but heck I take any DC charger over whatever L2 is out there as they are pretty much limited to 7 kW. If they want to install chargers that are 4 to 6 times as fast as L2, I'm all for it. I'll get an adapter and use them.

But overall, the charging infrastructure is overrated. We will never need as many chargers as we need gas stations. EVs are charged 80-90% at home or at work. The actual need for public chargers is not that high and will drop even more as batteries become larger in capacity.

I actually think we'll end up with far more public chargers than we have gas stations -- and they'll nearly all be "free for customers", associated with hotels or restaurants (Sun Country Highway's business model) rather than having complex payment systems.

One important point is that they are *low-maintenance*. Gas stations are huge maintenance nightmares, with all those volatile fluids and pumps. A charging point has a capital cost (much smaller than that of a gas station) -- but then if it sits there unused, there's really minimal maintenance costs. It's like the endless, often disused, electrical outlets in every building. There's no reason to disconnect them; you might as well put the perk in.

I just wonder when the people putting most of the public charging points in will figure out that they need fairly high wattages.

 

[gjunky]

I don't know... the pace at which the Tesla SC network is being expanded here is so incredibly slow and behind schedule, and they don't even have any plans at all to cover the majority of the country, so I think anything that would adapt to one of these would be quite welcome until Tesla decides they actually care about Canada.....

But even with enough of the BMW chargers in place, an i3 would not ever make it from city to city in Canada. Not only is the BMW DC "fast" charger not fast, the car is a city car. The 265 mile range is what makes the Tesla in need of superchargers because it is the only car that can be driven (in a reasonable time) between cities.

 

[Robert.Boston]

Some thoughts about this announcement. With respect to charging:

• More charging points is generally good news. If every BMW dealer in the US (map) has a 24kV public charger, that adds a lot of places to charge, and a charge rate faster (either by a little or a lot) than most Model S owners can get at public L2 spots. Heck, even a great spot in a commercial setting is typically 208v @ 40A = 8kW, or one-third of BMW's charger. More common is 6.0 to 6.6 kW, one-quarter of BMW's rate.
• Tesla will need to develop a CCS-DC converter for us to use these. Should be simple, but Tesla hasn't been exactly speedy about the CHAdeMO adapter. And it's one more adapter to keep in the car.
• There's a risk of charge-spot overload crowding out Supercharger placement. Not a big risk, IMO.
• OTOH, I'd rather have these chargers crowding out the woeful J1772s we see, delivering only 4-6kW of power.

With respect to BMW and BEV competition:

• BMW is clearly signaling that it doesn't intend to compete in the long-distance BEV segment, ceding that space to Tesla. Good news for investors, but not what Musk wanted to have happen from a global perspective.

 

[arg]

JB: That’s fine. We’re definitely commonizing with all of that. The only thing that’s up for debate in all of these standards is the physical geometries of the pins and sockets. Everything else is pretty easy to adapt to. The communication standards are pretty universal. We’re 100% compliant with all the J1772 communication levels, signaling, voltage, everything.

Unfortunately, this quote appears to be untrue - based on the reverse engineering work various people have done, the Model S/Supercharger protocol is _not_ the same as J1772 DC.

 

[SmartElectric]

• Tesla will need to develop a CCS-DC converter for us to use these.

Why?

Tesla has a "destination charger" program which is rolling out 17+kW AC charging stations at a greater pace than anything I've seen from BMW...

How can I charge at my destination?
Tesla is working with hotels, resorts, and other destinations to encourage the installation of High Power Wall Connectors where our customers spend time away from home. If your organization is interested in offering charging to Tesla owners, send us a note here, or email [email protected]

In Canada we have "Sun Country Highway" of 15+kW AC chargings stations.


BMW is playing catch up, and it's not very compelling (yet).

 

[Doug_G]

Unfortunately, this quote appears to be untrue - based on the reverse engineering work various people have done, the Model S/Supercharger protocol is _not_ the same as J1772 DC.

JB Straubel has commented in 2013 that Tesla's SC protocol is more or less directly compatible with the protocol CCS DC uses.

They could easily be using the same low-level signalling hardware but running different protocols. That means the Supercharger could perhaps be reprogrammed to work with other vehicles.

 

[richkae]

BMW is clearly signaling that it doesn't intend to compete in the long-distance BEV segment, ceding that space to Tesla. Good news for investors, but not what Musk wanted to have happen from a global perspective.

I think I disagree with this. I think that it will be really good for Tesla for one or more of the big ( and good ) automakers to try to compete with them in the long-distance BEV segment.

The other automakers are probably afraid to do that. It will totally validate the ( long-distance ) BEV and Tesla as the market leader and reveal the others as the latecomers that they are.

 

[WarpedOne]

So, "the other" are afraid to do it. Excellent opportunity for a second new guy to step up.
Say someone like Samsung? They are big, they have money, the make everything already (including cars) but are not a world car player yet.
They have ties with Renault that could be a source for some EV components.

Pure speculation but if I'd have to bet on anybody, I would sooner bet on Samsung than BMW or Nissan. They already proved they do not want to make great EVs. Samsung is still silent.

 

[arg]

They could easily be using the same low-level signalling hardware but running different protocols. That means the Supercharger could perhaps be reprogrammed to work with other vehicles.

Unfortunately, that's just what the reverse engineering has indicated is not the case: Superchargers using simple serial binary signalling, J1772-DC using a superimposed carrier frequency with a much higher data rate and an XML-structured protocol on top of that. They do both use the same J1772 signalling to say 'this is not simple AC charging, switch to the other protocol', but after that it appears to be different. Of course there's an outside possibility that there is also J1772-DC hardware there just not in use for some reason - but seems highly unlikely.

On the other hand you are of course right that Superchargers could easily be refitted for another protocol - adding another small interface board in each stall (even as a retro-fit) would be a very small cost compared to constructing the site in the first place. Different connectors would be rather more of an issue.

 

[Alfred]

Some thoughts about this announcement. With respect to charging:

• More charging points is generally good news. If every BMW dealer in the US (map) has a 24kV public charger, that adds a lot of places to charge, and a charge rate faster (either by a little or a lot) than most Model S owners can get at public L2 spots. Heck, even a great spot in a commercial setting is typically 208v @ 40A = 8kW, or one-third of BMW's charger. More common is 6.0 to 6.6 kW, one-quarter of BMW's rate.
• Tesla will need to develop a CCS-DC converter for us to use these. Should be simple, but Tesla hasn't been exactly speedy about the CHAdeMO adapter. And it's one more adapter to keep in the car.
• There's a risk of charge-spot overload crowding out Supercharger placement. Not a big risk, IMO.
• OTOH, I'd rather have these chargers crowding out the woeful J1772s we see, delivering only 4-6kW of power.

With respect to BMW and BEV competition:

• BMW is clearly signaling that it doesn't intend to compete in the long-distance BEV segment, ceding that space to Tesla. Good news for investors, but not what Musk wanted to have happen from a global perspective.

I would not draw as yet that conclusion. Audi, BMW as well as Daimler are probably banking on LG. Audi was reported to base their plans for a 2017 Tesla competitor on a promise of better batteries at lower costs from LG in the near term. They all know very well that without range they have no bread.

 

[WarpedOne]

Audi, BMW as well as Daimler are probably banking on LG.

So, them all together, including VW and Chevy and younameit, will produce 100.000 +200m EVS.
And tesla bythemselves will produce 200.000 +200m EVs.

One peculiar banking it is.

 

[Alfred]

So, them all together, including VW and Chevy and younameit, will produce 100.000 +200m EVS.
And tesla bythemselves will produce 200.000 +200m EVs.

One peculiar banking it is.

Not so much. Ramp up is expected to be slow. Confidence in the new battery will take several years. Take the Audi example: Introduction (per Audi) 2017 in the US, where compliance is required. Elsewhere was left open in their statement. Take 3 years of experience buildup before any serious ramp up may have to take place. They consider that they have plenty of time to organize battery supply. Daimler plans to invest over the next few years about 200 million € in Kamenz in a new site now under construction. That is not much, but probably enough for their plans for now. Large companies invariably proceed slowly and cautiously. Sometimes that is wise, sometimes they come late or even disappear. Time will tell.

 

[WarpedOne]

They consider that they have plenty of time to organize battery supply.

They might , but tesla is already digging dirt for those 200k in 2020.
Anybody who is not diggin' dirt already has no chance of such high production in 5 years.

But on the other hand, they are creating their own future. With them doing nothing, Tesla will have +50% EV market but still way under 5% whole market. Number games.

Some asia guy will need to step up, buy out LGChem production capacity and roll not against but together with Tesla.
And build some more multi billion GF's along the way to really crush dyno-dealers.

 

[Jaff]

Remember though SE, we here in Canada probably have one of the best and most developed "high amperage" L2 charging station networks in the world (courtesy of Sun Country Highway)...in most other places, even in the U.S., they are not so lucky...

[/LIST]

Why?

Tesla has a "destination charger" program which is rolling out 17+kW AC charging stations at a greater pace than anything I've seen from BMW...





In Canada we have "Sun Country Highway" of 15+kW AC chargings stations.


BMW is playing catch up, and it's not very compelling (yet).

 

[Robert.Boston]

Remember though SE, we here in Canada probably have one of the best and most developed "high amperage" L2 charging station networks in the world (courtesy of Sun Country Highway)...in most other places, even in the U.S., they are not so lucky...

And if I lived in Canada, I definitely would have ordered the dual-charger option. The advantage of the BMW chargers is that they're DC, so all Supercharger-enabled cars can use them (provided Tesla creates an adaptor). When I said earlier that Tesla would "need" to develop the adaptor, what I meant to convey was "In order for Tesla owners to use BMW's chargers, Tesla will need to create an adaptor." There's no strict need for such an adaptor, but I'd consider paying $100 for one if available.