Help me understand FSD ownership

[EVNation]

S

Even it that was true, it sounds like Tesla sold the car with FSD to the auction house - new sale in which FSD was paid for. Are they refunding $5K to the auction house because they took money for something they did not own (the FSD option)?

If Tesla ever gets FSD to work (the actual pre-2019 FSD, the one that you can summon across the continent, or have it drive your underage kids to school and activities), they will likely switch to a subscription model as it makes more sense, and this problem will go away. Unfortunately it's very hard to sell a subscription to vaporware which does absolutely nothing for years (4 years and counting now), hence they have to take people's money up-front selling a dream. I wonder how many people who leased their car with FSD when AP2 first came out think that extra monthly payment was worth it, just for the opportunity to dream. How many of them would have like to just stop paying for FSD after a year or two?

As much as I hate the proliferation of subscriptions, this is one case where I think it makes sense. I would love to trade my 3 in for a Y, but don’t want to pay for FSD all over again before I ever got to enjoy it. Not that I ever plan to operate a robo taxi or really believe it I can trust it park itself or drive me around while I take a nap.

 

[BigNick]

Remotely accessing a computer without permission is illegal.

If I were to hack Tesla’s servers and refund every owner $10K without permission from Tesla to do so, I’m sure I would be found guilty of several crimes.

The reverse should also be true. No different than if the car was “accidentally “ sold with 21-inch rims, they can’t simply break into your garage and take them from you. Trespass, breaking and entering, larceny, etc.

 

[Tam]

...No different than if the car was “accidentally “ sold with 21-inch rims, they can’t simply break into your garage and take them from you. Trespass, breaking and entering, larceny, etc.

Agree!

There should be a legal process for Tesla to produce the paperwork and show why it thinks the FSD was not paid.

In this case, Tesla showed the Monroney Sticker with FSD which is no proof to support its claim that the FSD was not paid!

 

[Tam]

...I can't explain why it was on the Monroney sticker or maybe that was incorrect too

Tesla Remotely Removes Autopilot Features From Customer's Used Tesla Without Any Notice [Updated]


Showing an incorrect sticker with $8,000 EAP/FSD is not proof of non-payment. It's the opposite:

...They claim they're not removing FSD from vehicles sold to auction houses...

Tesla Service Center documented that the FSD was removed on 11/18/2019 which was 3 days after the Auction House bought it and physically used the FSD in real life:

There's no need to ask the original owner because the proof that Tesla produced wasn't convincing so that's why Tesla restored the FSD after the press coverage.

 

[sheltz32tt]

FSD stays with the car.

If the sticker says it has EAP, and FSD then it has EAP and FSD.

So I would fight Tesla if they removed FSD from the vehicle.

Tesla can't claim it's tied to the car, but then remove it.

How did you acquire your vehicle? Through Tesla?

There have been reports of Tesla removing EAP/FSD during "audits".

https://thenextweb.com/cars/2020/02/13/tesla-autopilot-surreptitiously-taken-now-given-back-alec-model-s/

I purchased my car 3rd party dealer who purchased the car from Tesla at an auction after a lease was up. The original sticker shows both EAP and FSD. The reason I know it is not on the vehicle anymore is because when I load the app there is an "upgrade" to FSD for $7000. Does anyone know the guy's name who fought it and won?

 

[Tam]

...Does anyone know the guy's name who fought it and won?

That's Alec:

Tesla YANKED FSD option without notice - Class Action lawsuit? Any Lawyers here? [Resolved]

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Tesla Service Center documented that the FSD was removed on 11/18/2019 which was 3 days after the Auction House bought it and physically used the FSD in real life:

Exactly like I said.

It was sold to the auction house with FSD, and then FSD was removed AFTER they bought it. I said that to clarify that Tesla wasn't removing FSD before it was sold to the auction house. So it can't be compared with removing some part prior to a sale.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

There's no need to ask the original owner because the proof that Tesla produced wasn't convincing so that's why Tesla restored the FSD after the press coverage.

The Monroney Sticker is not definitive proof that FSD actually came with the car as I understand it. Just like a Monroney sticker that doesn't show FSD isn't proof that FSD isn't on the car as it can be bought after the sticker was printed. I don't think the original Monroney sticker is proof of anything when it comes to a SW upgradeable car like a Tesla.

I think its reasonable to assume that Tesla allowed customers to ask for the removal of FSD. Where FSD was removed from the sales invoice, but the monroney sticker still showed it.

So we would have to get the sales invoice either from Tesla or the original owner. Of course if Tesla is telling the truth then why wouldn't they simply produce the original sales invoice?

All I've been saying is what Tesla has told us with the acknowledgement that it sounds a bit fishy.I certainly agree with you in that nothing Tesla has shown us has shown proof that they're telling the truth. But, I don't think they've shown us anything that's shown the opposite.

So far they haven't acknowledged that they've been removing FSD from vehicles where FSD was paid for.

 

[Tam]

...The Monroney Sticker is not definitive proof that FSD actually came with the car as I understand it...

Correct!

The problem is it could mean that the FSD was there as indicated by the sticker. Most of the time, what you see on the sticker is what you get except for a very few occasions where the customer would ask to take it off.

So, showing the sticker implies that the majority of the time the sticker is correct because Tesla didn't claim any exception in this case.

For example, to prove that the accused cannot be the murderer that happened in the US, the lawyer should NOT show a picture of the accused and the victim together at the last minute. The correct way is to show the picture that the accused was in France and nowhere near the US.

Sure, showing the picture together with the victim doesn't mean the accused killed the victim but for the jury, it reinforces why that could happen because the proximity cannot rule that out.

I am not a lawyer, but it looks like Tesla needs a lawyer in presenting the cases to justify why they believe anyone among the history of the car ownership has not paid FSD.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Correct!

The problem is it could mean that the FSD was there as indicated by the sticker. Most of the time, what you see on the sticker is what you get except for a very few occasions where the customer would ask to take it off.

So, showing the sticker implies that the majority of the time the sticker is correct because Tesla didn't claim any exception in this case.

For example, to prove that the accused cannot be the murderer that happened in the US, the lawyer should NOT show a picture of the accused and the victim together at the last minute. The correct way is to show the picture that the accused was in France and nowhere near the US.

Sure, showing the picture together with the victim doesn't mean the accused killed the victim but for the jury, it reinforces why that could happen because the proximity cannot rule that out.

I am not a lawyer, but it looks like Tesla needs a lawyer in presenting the cases to justify why they believe anyone among the history of the car ownership has not paid FSD.

I think the whole Monroney Sticker program needs to change to reflect the reality of modern vehicles with upgradable features. Maybe a Digital Monroney sticker.

That way when a car is sold from one party to another that they know exactly what they're getting.

Especially now days with Tesla where you can get performance upgrades for just a few thousand more.

I'm fully expecting that Tesla will offer some kind of ludicrous performance upgrade for my P3D+. If I do buy it then I'm going to create a dedicated website for my car showing an up to date Monoroney sticker. I'll include other things like when HW2.5 was swapped out for HW3, etc.

Or maybe someone else will create a website dedicated to tracking Tesla VIN's and what options were added. That way people like the OP of this thread know exactly what their vehicle should have.

That way it prevents Tesla from double dipping.

 

[sheltz32tt]

I'm fully expecting that Tesla will offer some kind of ludicrous performance upgrade for my P3D+. If I do buy it then I'm going to create a dedicated website for my car showing an up to date Monoroney sticker. I'll include other things like when HW2.5 was swapped out for HW3, etc.


.

Would you hesitate to buy the upgrade if it was lost between owners, knowing you do not get any of that equity back when you sell?

 

[Russell]

S

As much as I hate the proliferation of subscriptions, this is one case where I think it makes sense. I would love to trade my 3 in for a Y, but don’t want to pay for FSD all over again before I ever got to enjoy it. Not that I ever plan to operate a robo taxi or really believe it I can trust it park itself or drive me around while I take a nap.

When you trade in your car, aren't you getting credit for FSD like you would for any other option on the car?

 

[Russell]

Would you hesitate to buy the upgrade if it was lost between owners, knowing you do not get any of that equity back when you sell?

Like any other option on a car, you should get credit for it when you sell it.

 

[EVNation]

When you trade in your car, aren't you getting credit for FSD like you would for any other option on the car?

Not if Tesla is removing it from the car and trying to squeeze the next owner to buy FSD again.

 

[Tam]

...I think the whole Monroney Sticker program needs to change to reflect the reality of modern vehicles with upgradable features. Maybe a Digital Monroney sticker...

That sounds like blockchain technology. All the history of options of the car and its payments will be permanently logged and won't be able to be altered or erased.

 

[Tam]

...That way it prevents Tesla from double dipping.

Double dipping is fine as long as the practice is spelled out clearly so there won't be any doubt or misunderstanding.

 

[whitex]

S

As much as I hate the proliferation of subscriptions, this is one case where I think it makes sense. I would love to trade my 3 in for a Y, but don’t want to pay for FSD all over again before I ever got to enjoy it. Not that I ever plan to operate a robo taxi or really believe it I can trust it park itself or drive me around while I take a nap.

Subscription actually makes sense for a different reason. Cars have a very long lifecycle. FSD is a software product. Maintaining a software product, especially an internet connected one, for 12-20 years extremely expensive, even if you limit it to essentials - security patches, bajor bug fixes, and in case of FSD necessary updates to traffic rules/signs/etc. The ability to move the subscription (or end one, start a new one) to a new car is a side benefit to both owners and manufacturers as it provides an incentive to sell new product. It also provides the manufacturer with a good count of how many people are still using the product, which helps decide when it's time to sunset it.

 

[whitex]

Not if Tesla is removing it from the car and trying to squeeze the next owner to buy FSD again.

If Tesla buys the car from you with FSD, your trade-in value reflects the fact that you have FSD. If Tesla values FSD at $0, then trade it in elsewhere or sell it privately (you paid for FSD so you see the value, therefore you're bound to find someone else out there who values it at more then $0). Once Tesla owns the car, they are free to do whatever they want with it, they can put steel wheels on it and sell it cheap, then sell the upgrade back to the originals. Your trade-in transaction is separate from their transaction selling it to a new owner. You negotiate yours (or in case of Tesla accept or reject their only offer), and don't worry about what they are going to do with the car - they could decide to donate it to Hollywood to be used as a stunt car which blows up in a spectacular fashion in some movie, why do you care?

 

[Russell]

Not if Tesla is removing it from the car and trying to squeeze the next owner to buy FSD again.

The next owner is not being squeezed.
They can say no thanks and buy a different car that includes FSD. Just don't expect it to be the same low price.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Would you hesitate to buy the upgrade if it was lost between owners, knowing you do not get any of that equity back when you sell?

Absolutely.

When it comes to aftermarket mods I definitely consider the cost of the mod versus whether I'll get anything when I try to sell the car.

For my 4x4 Camper Van there are mods I want (like a suspension upgrade), but I haven't seen any indication that ones with it have a higher resell. So I haven't pulled the trigger on it.

With Tesla I'd expect a Tesla purchased upgrade (FSD, performance boost, etc) to I increase the resale sale price of my vehicle by 40-50% of what the upgrade cost. With exception to possibly FSD since keeps increasing in price. So that one I could see getting more for it than 40-50% of the cost.