Help to understand home charging options?

[Litigate28]

So, I am not very technically inclined or have much of an understanding on how electrical systems work. I'm also renting the house I am in, and will be here for anywhere from 10 more months to 22 more months so I don't want to spend a lot on installing a 14-50 setup since the fuse box is far away from the garage. I had an estimate of $1400 already.

I also don't drive that much, so I can easily get away with a 5-20 if possible. My question is do I even have that option? Here is my current outlet and also a picture of the breaker associated with that outlet, which is the double switch that both say 20 on it. How do I know if I can change it to 5-20?

Also if I can't, for some reason now the UMC shows a blinking red light on the regular 5-15. Before it was working. The outlet is pretty loose, could that be the problem?

 

[AlMason]

The outlets shown are 15 Amp maximum and should not be not be powered by the 20 Amp breakers pictured. The gauge of the wiring supplying a 20 Amp circuit should be 12 gauge. This setup should be checked to electrical standards as you may have a code issue and fire hazard if you pull more than 15 Amps in this setup.

 

[Bill Price]

The breaker looks to be labeled master bedroom ..first thing I would do is get a volt meter and see if does register 20a at outlet ....you would need an outlet capable of 20a they are fairly inexpensive ..

I would not pay attention to information from this individual. He appears to have just enough knowledge to be dangerous. While a VOM is capable of measuring current, most can only measure up to 10 amps and there must be a device drawing that current in order to measure it. His text seems to imply that you can put the leads of the VOM into the outlet and measure current? The VOM will measure voltage only in this instance.

 

[Bill Price]

The outlets shown are 15 Amp maximum and should not be not be powered by the 20 Amp breakers pictured. The gauge of the wiring supplying a 20 Amp circuit should be 12 gauge. This setup should be checked to electrical standards as you may have a code issue and fire hazard if you pull more than 15 Amps in this setup.

The information from this individual is spot on. For your edification, here is a picture of the difference between 5-15 and 5-20.

 

[St Charles]

I could be wrong on this but doesn't the 5-15 adapter for the mobile charger limit draw to 12 amps?

 

[Litigate28]

The information from this individual is spot on. For your edification, here is a picture of the difference between 5-15 and 5-20.View attachment 435307

Right I do know the difference in what they look like. I'm just curious what I should do in this situation?

 

[Litigate28]

The outlets shown are 15 Amp maximum and should not be not be powered by the 20 Amp breakers pictured. The gauge of the wiring supplying a 20 Amp circuit should be 12 gauge. This setup should be checked to electrical standards as you may have a code issue and fire hazard if you pull more than 15 Amps in this setup.

If I'm reading this correctly, you are saying this setup as is right now is dangerous? Should I get the landlord involved if that's the case?

Sorry for all the ignorance, this is just not in my wheelhouse.

 

[St Charles]

If I'm reading this correctly, you are saying this setup as is right now is dangerous? Should I get the landlord involved if that's the case?

Sorry for all the ignorance, this is just not in my wheelhouse.

I believe what AlMason is saying is that there appears to be a mismatch between the outlet and the breaker. this could be a hazard and should be inspected.

 

[AlMason]

I believe what AlMason is saying is that there appears to be a mismatch between the outlet and the breaker. this could be a hazard and should be inspected.

That is correct.
Dual 20 Amp breakers in a single breaker box slot like the ones pictures are usually added after construction to add additional circuits -- It's not a bad thing so long as the gauge of the wire connecting the breaker to the outlets & switches are at least 12 gauge. The fact that a 15 Amp outlet is attached deserves a check, just to be sure, before you pull any serious current.

 

[KJD]

So, I am not very technically inclined or have much of an understanding on how electrical systems work. I'm also renting the house I am in, and will be here for anywhere from 10 more months to 22 more months so I don't want to spend a lot on installing a 14-50 setup since the fuse box is far away from the garage. I had an estimate of $1400 already.
I also don't drive that much, so I can easily get away with a 5-20 if possible. My question is do I even have that option? Here is my current outlet and also a picture of the breaker associated with that outlet, which is the double switch that both say 20 on it. How do I know if I can change it to 5-20?
Also if I can't, for some reason now the UMC shows a blinking red light on the regular 5-15. Before it was working. The outlet is pretty loose, could that be the problem?

If the outlet is loose that is a problem for sure. It might be that the UMC does not see the ground because of the loose connection and that is why it blinks red.

If you have not done this before, have an electrician install a new outlet and make sure the rest of the circuit is in good working order.

 

[AlMason]

I could be wrong on this but doesn't the 5-15 adapter for the mobile charger limit draw to 12 amps?

True, but what other outlets and switches would be powered off the breaker other than the 12A for the Tesla. It's a relativly simple to check the wire gauge both at the box and the outlet.

 

[Rocky_H]

The outlets shown are 15 Amp maximum and should not be not be powered by the 20 Amp breakers pictured.

No, that's incorrect.

The information from this individual is spot on.

No, it's not spot on. It is false.

If I'm reading this correctly, you are saying this setup as is right now is dangerous? Should I get the landlord involved if that's the case?

No, it's not dangerous, and it is perfectly code-legal.

I believe what AlMason is saying is that there appears to be a mismatch between the outlet and the breaker. this could be a hazard and should be inspected.

No, it's not dangerous, and it is an allowed mismatch by NEC, and no it doesn't need to be inspected.

The fact that a 15 Amp outlet is attached deserves a check, just to be sure, before you pull any serious current.

It doesn't need a check. It's code compliant and standard practice.

Jeez. There are sections of the National Electric Code that talk about branch circuits with multiple outlets on them and which ratings of outlets are allowed to be on them. The main descriptive code section that talks about it is 210.21(B)(3), and then there is a reference table, which is 210.24. It very specifically allows that these household circuits that are 20A, with 20A circuit breakers and wiring are allowed to use a mix of 15 or 20 amp outlet types (5-15 or 5-20).

Here are a few references for this:
Article 210, continued - IAEI News magazine
Quote:
In 210.21(B)(3) we now need to deal with which amperage receptacles are permitted on which amperage circuits when using more than a single receptacle. Table 210.21(B)(3) gives us this information, but it can be a little confusing to those who try to apply common sense. The first line is ok: a 15-amp circuit limits us to 15-amp receptacle or lower. However, the second line allows us to install either a 15- or 20-amp receptacles on a 20-amp circuit. This is actually a very common practice for receptacle circuits. Unless specified by a design professional, the 15-amp receptacle commonly gets installed on a 20-amp circuit.

Here is a picture of the 210.24 table although this article is asking about a different question, but you can see it does say 15 or 20 amp outlet types allowed on the 20A circuits:
Why is it OK to use a 50 A receptacle on a 40 A circuit?

OK, now that we've cleared up all of this wrong information about code, let's talk about this, which is relevant:

Also if I can't, for some reason now the UMC shows a blinking red light on the regular 5-15. Before it was working. The outlet is pretty loose, could that be the problem?

Thanks to @KJD. Loose outlet is definitely not good and should be fixed. That is a pretty common fire danger and is a general thing, not specifically related to car charging. Any kind of outlet that gets used a lot over many years can have the internal "squeezing" springs get worn out and not grip plugs very well. Those loose connections can make a resistive hot spot. So if you find outlets that are loose when you try to plug stuff in, go ahead and replace those outlets.

And blinking red light may be indicating that it can't detect ground. That is something you would need to check on.

 

[Rocky_H]

@Bill Price Cite some code, buddy. I have cited the exact code references, so you are just disagreeing with the National Electrical Code, not with me.

 

[Rocky_H]

Just because you have 20 amp breakers in the box does not necessarily mean that 12 gauge wire was pulled and substituted for the 14. In either case the circuit is ok for 15 amps. BUT before you go taking the 5-15 receptacles out and replacing them with 5-20, you need to inspect the wire to see that it actually is 12 gauge and ready for that ampacity on that circuit.

This part is actually helpful. I did not ever recommend just blindly swapping the outlets. Yes, if you do want to swap from a 15 to a 20 amp outlet, you should make sure the wire gauge is right, and that it actually is a legit 20A circuit. But I was pointing out that this kind of installation of a proper 20 amp circuit with the mix of outlet types is valid.

 

[AlMason]

@Bill Price Cite some code, buddy. I have cited the exact code references, so you are just disagreeing with the National Electrical Code, not with me.

No disagreement with the elctrical code references -- just worth a quick visual check of this particular circuit before installing an higher capacity outlet.

 

[ucmndd]

The outlets shown are 15 Amp maximum and should not be not be powered by the 20 Amp breakers pictured.

5-15 receptacles on 20 amp circuits are incredibly common and perfectly acceptable by code.

 

[Bill Price]

5-15 receptacles on 20 amp circuits are incredibly common and perfectly acceptable by code.

While this gentleman is technically correct, what he fails to realize is the intention of AIMason. What AIMson is really saying is that there SHOULD NOT BE 20 amps utilized on a circuit that most likely was pulled with 14 gauge wire.

 

[ucmndd]

While this gentleman is technically correct, what he fails to realize is the intention of AIMason. What AIMson is really saying is that there SHOULD NOT BE 20 amps utilized on a circuit that most likely was pulled with 14 gauge wire.

I find it best to not try and speculate on peoples' intention, but rather what they actually say. What @AlMason actually said is incorrect, and unambiguously so.

Along those same lines I find "most likely was pulled with 14 gauge wire" to be pure speculation, without any supporting evidence. Yes, of course this should be verified before swapping receptacles.

But that doesn't make the first part of what was said any more correct - "the outlets shown are 15 Amp maximum and should not be not be powered by the 20 Amp breakers pictured". That's what I responded to, because it's wrong.

 

[Rocky_H]

While this gentleman is technically correct, what he fails to realize is the intention of AIMason. What AIMson is really saying is that there SHOULD NOT BE 20 amps utilized on a circuit that most likely was pulled with 14 gauge wire.

Please stop with the misinformation.
OK, let's look at "most likely was pulled with 14 gauge wire". Sure, that is probably true. But what's your problem with it?
Ampacity Charts - Cerrowire
14 gauge wire is rated for 20A circuits with THWN wire or 25A circuits with THHN wire. So yes, that would be the code-appropriate wire size for 20A circuits in a house.
Now for this part, about "there SHOULD NOT BE 20 amps utilized"
That will generally not be happening anyway!! So you don't need to worry about it! If someone does change the outlet to a 5-20 and use the Tesla 5-20 adapter, the current limit is appropriately manged to limit it to 16A, not 20A, because they build in the correct 80% margin to not fully utilize 100% capacity for long term loads.

So if the wire size was at least code-legal when that house/circuit was built, then it would appropriately be a 20A circuit with 14 gauge wiring, that can use a 20A outlet.

*Edit* Perhaps there is something I'm missing in the code on this. Tables show 14 gauge as rated for 20A. Is there actually a requirement that 20A branch circuits in a house need to use 12 gauge instead?
*Edit part 2* ...with code citation.

 

[ucmndd]

*Edit* Perhaps there is something I'm missing in the code on this. Tables show 14 gauge as rated for 20A. Is there actually a requirement that 20A branch circuits in a house need to use 12 gauge instead?
*Edit part 2* ...with code citation.

You're technically correct in what you're saying, but it doesn't represent a common installation scenario in most homes.

14ga THWN or THHN IN CONDUIT could use the 75 or 90c rating and be good up to 25 amps.

However, most/all 120v branch circuits in residential homes are run with NM wire ("Romex"), thus they must use the 60c rating, which is 15 amps for 14ga copper.