How come Tesla cannot beat Hyundai's MPGe?

[OCR1]

So what is the MPGe in question?
2019 Hyundai Ioniq Electric

Well you win!

• Hyundai IONIQ EV, 136 MGPe vs Tesla Standard Range Plus, 134 MPGe
• Hyundai IONIQ EV, 124 mi EV range vs Tesla Standard Range Plus, 240 mi EV range
• Hyundai IONIQ EV, sold only in CARB states vs Tesla Standard Range Plus, any state
• Hyundai IONIQ EV, CCS chargers only vs Tesla Standard Range Plus, any SuperCharger

Yes indeed, Tesla is totally screwed because their MPGe is 2/136 ~= 1.5 % lower than the Hyundai IONIQ EV. Please, you should buy a Hyundai IONIQ because: EV range is unimportant; who can buy one, and; CCS chargers are so plentiful versus the SuperChargers. Yes, you should buy the Hyundai IONIQ EV.

Sad to say, living in Alabama, I had to buy the 'inferior' Standard Range Plus Model 3 for $22,905. Woe is me!

Bob Wilson

Good comparison. And again going back to my original point, in return for an extra 2 MGPe, you get a car that goes from 0-60 in 8.2 seconds versus 5.3 seconds (or 5 seconds if LR RWD). Who would want to make that trade off for an extra 2mpg?

 

[Evoforce]

I have no idea. But according to this article the warranty does not transfer on sale to a new owner. If this is correct, that is a pretty serious drawback for someone wanting to sell their Kona.

Hyundai's EV Battery That Lasts a Lifetime | Torque News

Thank you and you are correct!

 

[SomeJoe7777]

@Reeler,

Part of the fallacy of your thinking is that in your mind, higher MPGe means higher technology and/or better engineering.

That's false.

MPGe is pretty much a direct measurement of the efficiency of the drivetrain. Literally, the MPGe figure is computed as miles traveled per 33.7 kWh of electrical energy stored in the battery.

Well, if you want to maximize that figure, you don't need technology. In a Tesla, the drivetrain incurs the following losses before power gets to the wheels: Inverter, permanent-magnet assisted switched reluctance motor, and reduction gears. Each of those incurs some energy loss.

If I wanted to, I could build a vehicle using a centuries-old direct-drive DC motor (brushes and commutator), eliminating the inverter and the reduction gears, and blow the MPGe number out of the water. But it's impractical to build an EV that way, because the brushes in such a motor would need to be overhauled every 10,000 miles, the motor is huge and bulky, it can't run at high speeds due to the rotor design, and is limited in power because the heat-producing windings are on the rotor not the stator.

The Kona uses a small, lower-power, permanent magnet motor design. This design is slightly more efficient than the PMSR motor used in the Tesla, including the ability to regen down to 0 MPH. But it comes with it's own drawbacks. If you try to build such a motor for high power, the cost skyrockets due to the amount of rare earth magnets you have to put in the motor. And as the motor gets bigger, you need larger windings and more cooling, which will reduce the efficiency due to the longer magnetic flux path. Thus, this type of motor is practical only for a smaller, lower power use case. Truthfully, Hyundai didn't do much engineering with their motor at all, having used a pretty much off-the-shelf design.

The conclusion here is that it's not that Kona "beat" Tesla in MPGe numbers. It's that the nature of Tesla's product (much higher power vehicle, cost minimzation in motor materials) necessitated a different design that has inherently lower efficiency. Despite this, Tesla still beats the Kona in MPGe overall and especially in highway driving.

I would argue that the higher technology and better engineering belongs to Telsa, who managed to create a vehicle with a higher MPGe than Hyundai did while using a motor design where that shouldn't have even been possible.

 

[OCR1]

Thank you and you are correct!

I bet you have to really dig into the fine print when buying one of those cars before you discover this. I wonder if the dealers go out of their way to educate potential buyers on this restriction.

It reminds me my “lifetime warranty” on the Milgard windows we installed when we built our house. It was lifetime for the original owner only. Well we built the house 18 years ago and we are still here. And we’ve now replaced every window in the house at least twice. I bet they never figured we would stay in place for so long but I’d say we won the game on that one.

 

[Evoforce]

So what is the MPGe in question?
2019 Hyundai Ioniq Electric

Well you win!

• Hyundai IONIQ EV, 136 MGPe vs Tesla Standard Range Plus, 134 MPGe
• Hyundai IONIQ EV, 124 mi EV range vs Tesla Standard Range Plus, 240 mi EV range
• Hyundai IONIQ EV, sold only in CARB states vs Tesla Standard Range Plus, any state
• Hyundai IONIQ EV, CCS chargers only vs Tesla Standard Range Plus, any SuperCharger

Yes indeed, Tesla is totally screwed because their MPGe is 2/136 ~= 1.5 % lower than the Hyundai IONIQ EV. Please, you should buy a Hyundai IONIQ because: EV range is unimportant; who can buy one, and; CCS chargers are so plentiful versus the SuperChargers. Yes, you should buy the Hyundai IONIQ EV.

Sad to say, living in Alabama, I had to buy the 'inferior' Standard Range Plus Model 3 for $22,905. Woe is me!

Bob Wilson

Our next question, is Ioniq liquid cooled or cabin air cooled? Downfall of Kia Soul in hot climates is cabin air cooling! Cars generally spend most of their time parked in the sun and over hot surfaces. Not cooled when not moving and battery is not protected.

 

[Saghost]

Our next question, is Ioniq liquid cooled or cabin air cooled? Downfall of Kia Soul in hot climates is cabin air cooling! Cars generally spend most of their time parked in the sun and over hot surfaces. Not cooled when not moving and battery is not protected.

Current Ioniqs are air cooled. Rumors claim the Ioniq will get a ~30% larger, liquid cooled pack in the 2020 redesign, but who knows?

 

[Futuresystem]

Everyone wants to make this thread about Tesla having a better product on some criteria other than MPGe, but that is the sole topic here. Hijackers of the thread simply can’t resist the temptation.

Reeler, perhaps you should just go and buy an Ioniq or Kona, and be done. Just go for it. What exactly is your point?

As for me, I’ve test driven a Kona- extensively. Impressed? In a few areas, but terribly disappointed in MANY others, as follows and in no particular order.
Looks! : hmmm, fail. The Kona May appeal to some, but it’s really not a car you can sit back and admire.
Power! : reasonably good, compared to it’s ICE brethren, if you can get the power to ground, but not in remotely the same league as a Model3. It spins the front wheels at the slightest right foot plant, and has absolutely horrendous torque steer, especially on an uneven road. It’s way behind even a short range Model 3 in both performance AND traction. Driven in a spirited fashion, it would destroy front tyres in no time.
Charging! : hmmm, huge fail. It lacks both the network, and the speed, with a top speed of only around 70kW IF you can actually find a suitable charger.
Self driving or autosteer!: huge fail. Tesla are streets ahead, and heading off into the distance. No pun intended.
Rear seat legroom! : Horrendous! forget it with even reasonably tall front seat passengers. I’m 6’1” and the rear seat with my driving seat adjusted as I like it, would struggle to fit a 6 year old in the back.
Technology and “smarts”” : huge fail, with a messy menu system which needs a deep dive to find what you want, like Windows vs iOS comparing with a Model 3. Of course the Model 3 will just keep on getting better.
Handling! : Just not in the same league, period.
Headlights! : ditto. The NHTSA gave them a thumbs down. Halogens have poor light, LED’s far too much glare to other drivers.
Meanwhile of course the 3 absolutely aced in every single measure in crash testing.
Rear Hatch: Well I guess they had to win somewhere! We will have to wait for the Y if you want that.


Anyway, why are you comparing a much lighter, much shorter range car (Ioniq) with a much heavier, longer range and more capable car. Shock: Tesla while being top of their game, can’t yet actually beat the rules of Physics. Regen on ANY car is at best 50-60% efficient, and weight will therefore always affect efficiency.

 

[67King]

I would love to have the Kona's interior space. Have you tried to fit something big in the Model 3? The Tesla's are very wide.

View attachment 401039

I have 3 kids, 2 of which are teenagers. They spend 9 hours a week in the back seat going to swim practice, plus all the miscellaneous times they are in it. I have a truck for large things, but a 102" wheelbase car is not a 4 passenger car.

Again, a micro car is going to get better economy than a midsize, whether it is electric, gasoline, or diesel.

 

[Kilotango74]

So if I’m correct MPGe is calculated using the following:MPGe = (miles driven) / [(total energy of all fuels consumed)/(energy of one gallon of gasoline)]
It’s that miles driven portion that makes this argument slightly subjective. Just because Hyundai squeaks by in the official rating dose t mean they are making a more efficient drivetrain. Quite the contrary looking at the other numbers, battery size, performance, etc show Tesla’s setup is better. Sure this conversation started purely about the MPGe rating and if you look through the narrow blinders of comparing just those numbers then sure Hyundai has a “better” number. We all can tell which number is bigger. But just like MPG ratings those numbers are misleading and you can’t intelligently compare just that particular rating. If that’s all you care about go buy the Hyundai, but a quick tire swap on a Model 3 will change that number, hell it’s so close a good wax job might change it. In the end your still stuck with a vehicle based on an ICE platform that lacks in so many areas.

 

[Gen3]

Get an electric bicycle. Way more efficient than any car out there. Tesla is doomed.

 

[Saghost]

So if I’m correct MPGe is calculated using the following:MPGe = (miles driven) / [(total energy of all fuels consumed)/(energy of one gallon of gasoline)]
It’s that miles driven portion that makes this argument slightly subjective. Just because Hyundai squeaks by in the official rating dose t mean they are making a more efficient drivetrain. Quite the contrary looking at the other numbers, battery size, performance, etc show Tesla’s setup is better. Sure this conversation started purely about the MPGe rating and if you look through the narrow blinders of comparing just those numbers then sure Hyundai has a “better” number. We all can tell which number is bigger. But just like MPG ratings those numbers are misleading and you can’t intelligently compare just that particular rating. If that’s all you care about go buy the Hyundai, but a quick tire swap on a Model 3 will change that number, hell it’s so close a good wax job might change it. In the end your still stuck with a vehicle based on an ICE platform that lacks in so many areas.

I spent a while trying to parse your argument, but I think you're basically correct.

The EPA actually creates a "gas gallon equivalent" that's based on energy content - for electricity, it's 33.7 kWh. They then divide the miles driven on the test cycle by the energy used in GGE, and the results is the MPGe rating.

If I understood right, what I think you're trying to do is separate the energy conversion efficiency of the car from the loads induced moving the car - a valid technical point but one that's likely lost on most consumers. A lighter, more aerodynamic car with worse conversion efficiency can still get better overall efficiency because it has lower loads.

This difference was shown starkly when I got my Model X - which despite being 10% larger in every direction and 30% heavier has the same MPGe rating as the Volt it replaced in electric mode.

 

[Kilotango74]

I spent a while trying to parse your argument, but I think you're basically correct.

The EPA actually creates a "gas gallon equivalent" that's based on energy content - for electricity, it's 33.7 kWh. They then divide the miles driven on the test cycle by the energy used in GGE, and the results is the MPGe rating.

If I understood right, what I think you're trying to do is separate the energy conversion efficiency of the car from the loads induced moving the car - a valid technical point but one that's likely lost on most consumers. A lighter, more aerodynamic car with worse conversion efficiency can still get better overall efficiency because it has lower loads.

This difference was shown starkly when I got my Model X - which despite being 10% larger in every direction and 30% heavier has the same MPGe rating as the Volt it replaced in electric mode.

Of course it is mostly lost on the consumers, most like the Op focus on that number which is what the manufacturer wants.

 

[TonyT]

Hyundai Ioniq Hwy 122, City 150, Combined 136
Tesla 3 Hwy 128, City 140, Combined 134

How come Ioniq cant beat 3's Hwy mpge?

 

[tlr1000]

So OP is comparing solely the efficiency between the Tesla Model 3 Standard Plus against Hyundai IONIQ Electric and asking why the Tesla pails in comparison. Even though many car buyers put value on looks, handling, performance, etc, etc, the OP says we are talking about efficiency only. Going back to EPA ratings, the Tesla uses 26 kWh/100 mi whereas the Ioniq uses 25 kWh/100 mi. Clearly the Ionic wins in efficiency by 1 kWh/100 mi or about 4%. If we don't care about all other factors mentioned other than efficiency, then perhaps something like the Electra Meccanica Solo would make Ioniq seem really inefficient since it the Solo uses 17.3 kWh/100 mi or about 31% more efficient than the Ionic.

I know, not a fair comparison. The Solo is completely different than the Ionic but so is the Ioniq and Tesla M3. I think all of these vehicles are great for specific people and specific uses. The most significant difference between the Tesla and Hyundai compared is weight which has a significant impact on efficiency. Just my guess here but I'd wager that if Tesla built a car with its current technology the same size and weight as the Ioniq, the Tesla would be at least as efficient and likely more so.

How come Hyundai cannot beat Solo's MPGe?

 

[Evoforce]

I would guess that most of us that buy these expensive cars are leaders and not followers (sheep).

If or when a better product presents itself, I am confident that the best electric vehicle is what most of us (mavericks) will embrace.

You like to use the word fanboi which connotation sounds as though you are accusing of blind following. I would argue that there are very few fanbois in our ranks. We are the #CultOfSuccessful looking for the best EV our money can buy. Tesla is currently that vehicle.

I would also argue that most of us keep up with emerging EV technology in order to stay up to date. I also believe most of us relish competition from all in order to improve EV's and infrastructure.

 

[Kilotango74]

So OP is comparing solely the efficiency between the Tesla Model 3 Standard Plus against Hyundai IONIQ Electric and asking why the Tesla pails in comparison. Even though many car buyers put value on looks, handling, performance, etc, etc, the OP says we are talking about efficiency only. Going back to EPA ratings, the Tesla uses 26 kWh/100 mi whereas the Ioniq uses 25 kWh/100 mi. Clearly the Ionic wins in efficiency by 1 kWh/100 mi or about 4%. If we don't care about all other factors mentioned other than efficiency, then perhaps something like the Electra Meccanica Solo would make Ioniq seem really inefficient since it the Solo uses 17.3 kWh/100 mi or about 31% more efficient than the Ionic.

I know, not a fair comparison. The Solo is completely different than the Ionic but so is the Ioniq and Tesla M3. I think all of these vehicles are great for specific people and specific uses. The most significant difference between the Tesla and Hyundai compared is weight which has a significant impact on efficiency. Just my guess here but I'd wager that if Tesla built a car with its current technology the same size and weight as the Ioniq, the Tesla would be at least as efficient and likely more so.

How come Hyundai cannot beat Solo's MPGe?

A difference of 1 kWh/100 mi is hardly an argument that Tesla “pales in comparison”. That’s the point. I could practically make up the difference by driving the Hyundai with my had stuck out the window. And that still doesn’t counter the point the the Tesla does it with much better performance. Let’s see the Hyundai’s MPGe if it had the same 0-60. I would argue that performance numbers do play into it. The Tesla is essentially performing a greater amount of work for around the same amount of energy expended.

 

[bwilson4web]

Going back to EPA ratings, the Tesla uses 26 kWh/100 mi whereas the Ioniq uses 25 kWh/100 mi.

If you check the Monroney sticker of my Standard Range Plus Model 3, the lower right box "EPA/DOT Fuel Economy and Environment" shows "25 kWh/100 mi".
How come Tesla cannot beat Hyundai's MPGe?

IONIQ   SRM3+     metric
  136     134     MGPe
  150     140     city
  122     128     highway
   25      25     kWh/100 mi
  124     240     mi range
 3500    3875     lbs EPA test weight
  CCS  SuperC     fast DC charger
  117     282     HP EPA rated

• IONIQ lighter weight, 375 lbs - lower inertial losses in city testing
• SRM3+, 128 MPGe vs 122, and range 240 vs 124 - makes it a more efficient highway car

As for the Kia EVs, they are not in the running compared to a Standard Range Plus Model 3.

Bob Wilson

 

[Lozza12]

Tesla just upgraded the motors on the luxury end of the line-up to match the Model 3's efficient motors, but still Hyundai can beat Tesla with a compliance car no less? Seriously, with a ground-up design what is wrong with Tesla. They are getting close, but should be lapping the field. Tesla has better wind resistance numbers as you would expect in such a slippery design. WTF?

Tesla Model 3 Standard Plus Almost As Efficient As Hyundai IONIQ Electric

Having driven the Ioniq and Kona EV extensively at work I can assure you the reason is that the Hyundai’s are smaller and much less fun to drive.

With Model 3 you are buying much more car with more powerful and responsive motors, and for the LR and P variants you are buying more battery, which as others have said - means more weight.

Model 3 for me any day I can assure you. Much better value for money.

 

[tlr1000]

At the end of the day, I think Hyundai makes a good product and they've certainly come a long way as a car manufacturer. It's easy to pick isolated things and say one's better than the other but most people would never buy a car one a single factor such as efficiency and especially if the cars they are considering differ by some immaterial amount (such as 1 kwh/100mi). This thread started off comparing a TM3 with an Ioniq then with a Kona. One of the things compared was that the Kona has more ground clearance than the TM3 and if that's important, then buy the Kona. In this case Hyundai "beats" Tesla. Many would also say the TM3 has a much lower center of gravity and therefore its better. So others would say Tesla "beats" Hyundai. The fact of the matter is that they are completely different cars and I really doubt as an overall package, Hyundai "beats" Tesla. That statement can be true for various isolated factors obviously. Example, one could say, Hyundai "beats" Tesla when it comes to future cost to replace tires. Hyundai "beats" Tesla when it comes to availability service centers, Hyundai "beats" Tesla when it comes to cost of paint options, etc etc. Obviously I own a Tesla and if someone chooses to buy a Hyundai because it suits their specific needs more or they value its advantages I would not label them a Hyundai fanboy.

 

[Leafdriver333]

Hyundai must have smarter engineers than Tesla.