How come Tesla cannot beat Hyundai's MPGe?

[Saghost]

It is just a car folks and honestly it has perplexed me as an electrical engineer how Hyundai could fly so close to the sun.

If you've been paying attention, this has been answered several times - Hyundai compromised the performance to achieve efficiency, using smaller tires and less powerful motors in a lighter car with a smaller, lighter battery.

That reduced the loads side enough to provide better total efficiency even with a lower conversion efficiency - at least on the city side.

They weren't able to match Tesla's combination of conversion efficiency and aerodynamics, so they couldn't match the freeway rating - the one that matters for a long range EV.

 

[bwilson4web]

it has perplexed me as an electrical engineer how Hyundai could fly so close to the sun.

As practice for table tags with data from Data on Cars used for Testing Fuel Economy | US EPA:

Represented Test Veh Model	IONIQ	Standard Range Plus RWD
Rated Horsepower	117	282
Drive System Description	2-Wheel Drive, Front	2-Wheel Drive, Rear
Equivalent Test Weight (lbs.)	3500	3875
RND_ADJ_FE	184	182.3
Target Coef A (lbf)	21.17	36.01
Target Coef B (lbf/mph)	0.19016	-0.1289
Target Coef C (lbf/mph**2)	0.015762	0.01667
mph	IONIQ drag HP	Standard Range Plus RWD drag HP
5	0.30	0.48
10	0.66	0.97
15	1.10	1.51
20	1.67	2.14
25	2.39	2.88
30	3.28	3.77
35	4.40	4.85
40	5.76	6.14
45	7.40	7.68
50	9.34	9.50
55	11.63	11.64
60	14.29	14.13
65	17.35	17.00
70	20.85	20.29
75	24.82	24.02
80	29.28	28.24
85	34.28	32.98
90	39.83	38.26
95	45.98	44.13

• Drag HP does NOT include the power needed when the car is in READY (i.e., powered) state.

There is a simpler approach by getting three benchmarks, 10 miles or longer with the same starting and ending spot to normalize wind and altitude changes. Taken at 20-30 mph; 40-55 mph, and; 65-75 mph, the Whr/mile can be put into an Excel spreadsheet and a 2nd order, polynomial trend line added to a graph of the points. Then use the corresponding trend line function to plot the remaining points.

I don't have an IONIQ EV to run benchmarks. Regardless, this approach has the advantage of testing both cold and hot weather performance. It also allows testing effects of tire/wheel changes or other homegrown solutions.

Bob Wilson

 

[Saghost]

As practice for table tags with data from Data on Cars used for Testing Fuel Economy | US EPA:

Represented Test Veh Model	IONIQ	Standard Range Plus RWD
Rated Horsepower	117	282
Drive System Description	2-Wheel Drive, Front	2-Wheel Drive, Rear
Equivalent Test Weight (lbs.)	3500	3875
RND_ADJ_FE	184	182.3
Target Coef A (lbf)	21.17	36.01
Target Coef B (lbf/mph)	0.19016	-0.1289
Target Coef C (lbf/mph**2)	0.015762	0.01667
mph	IONIQ drag HP	Standard Range Plus RWD drag HP
5	0.30	0.48
10	0.66	0.97
15	1.10	1.51
20	1.67	2.14
25	2.39	2.88
30	3.28	3.77
35	4.40	4.85
40	5.76	6.14
45	7.40	7.68
50	9.34	9.50
55	11.63	11.64
60	14.29	14.13
65	17.35	17.00
70	20.85	20.29
75	24.82	24.02
80	29.28	28.24
85	34.28	32.98
90	39.83	38.26
95	45.98	44.13

• Drag HP does NOT include the power needed when the car is in READY (i.e., powered) state.

There is a simpler approach by getting three benchmarks, 10 miles or longer with the same starting and ending spot to normalize wind and altitude changes. Taken at 20-30 mph; 40-55 mph, and; 65-75 mph, the Whr/mile can be put into an Excel spreadsheet and a 2nd order, polynomial trend line added to a graph of the points. Then use the corresponding trend line function to plot the remaining points.

I don't have an IONIQ EV to run benchmarks. Regardless, this approach has the advantage of testing both cold and hot weather performance. It also allows testing effects of changing tires or other homegrown solutions.

Bob Wilson

It doesn't look like they supply much additional explanation for what they gave us. Normally you have three sets of loads - fixed loads per unit time, like running the computers and HVAC, which become relatively lower as you go faster, rolling resistance types that are a fixed amount per mile (and therefore increase linearly with speed,) and aero drag that increases as a square of the speed.

I saw they had fixed, per mph and per MPH^2 coefficients, so I thought I was on good ground - until I realized they are quoting a negative number for the model 3 for per mph. That doesn't seem entirely possible from my understanding of the physics, so I'm confused again.

You can clearly see the Ioniq's city efficiency and the crossover at 55 mph to the 3's highway advantage in that data, though.

 

[InDaClub]

I dare not ask on this forum what folks prefer overall. It is just the narrow point that Tesla is chest thumping this week about efficiency with their new range on the S/X, but it seems Hyundai is fierce competition on that front alone.

I'm sure their vehicles are very good, I mean come on how could they not be.

Hyundai, Kia recall 168,000 vehicles at risk for fires
Federal Auto Regulator To Investigate Hyundai, Kia Vehicle Fires

 

[bwilson4web]

until I realized they are quoting a negative number for the model 3 for per mph. That doesn't seem entirely possible from my understanding of the physics, so I'm confused again.

It is a math artifact that happens with other cars too. It simply adjusts the A and C coefficients to more closely match the observed data.

Bob Wilson

 

[p-f-g]

Tesla is not interested in making a short range vehicle with less than 200 km range.

Remind me the specs of the version just announced in Canada?

 

[Saghost]

Remind me the specs of the version just announced in Canada?

Read the wording. I'm quite certain Tesla isn't interested in making that car - after all, it's a software locked version of the SR+, just like the stateside one, and for similar money.

But the stateside version had a promised range, so they hit that - and I assume they got too many buyers for it, so they had to make the value proposition clearer for Canada.

 

[Gen3]

Remind me the specs of the version just announced in Canada?

Why? you think Tesla Designed a made for Canada model 3 with small battery?

 

[Reeler]

Tesla had to compete with the IONIQ in Canada. With the same range, the only propulsion difference is the higher HP motor in the Tesla and lower wind resistance.

Maybe this thread got Tesla thinking about competing with something more similar to the IONIQ, but too bad they cannot get their MPGe numbers up with that strategy.

 

[Gen3]

Tesla had to compete with the IONIQ in Canada. With the same range, the only propulsion difference is the higher HP motor in the Tesla and lower wind resistance.

Maybe this thread got Tesla thinking about competing with something more similar to the IONIQ, but too bad they cannot get their MPGe numbers up with that strategy.

I think you just want to get people riled up.

 

[tlr1000]

I think you just want to get people riled up.

Agreed. Making assumptions is a dangerous thing. Tesla absolutely did not make the 150 km version of the model 3 to compete with the Ioniq. That new model is a Standard Range Plus with a software locked range created specifically to qualify for a $5,000 Canadian federal rebate. Lots of stories online about this: Tesla launches cheaper Model 3 with 150km range in Canada to get $5,000 incentive

 

[Reeler]

Hyundai must be watching this thread, because they are addressing the range and power issues: Hyundai Ioniq Electric Gets Boosted Range, Stronger Motor, New Look I wonder if the new IONIQ will get heavier or if the MPGe will change,

 

[SammichLover]

GM did a ground-up design on the Bolt

Incorrect. It is a design hack of the Aveo/Sonic platform. That's why it is FWD, and you can easily see this via vestigial aspects such as the foam insert under the rear storage area in a cavity that is shaped like a spare tire. The Bolt coming stock with run-flats and no spare tire, there is zero reason for this to be there other than it was just something that was never removed during the design hack of the Aveo by GMDAT.

That said, the Kona has ... higher drag coefficient (.29 vs .23),

Which is a big part of why it is actually on the receiving end of the "ass whooping" when you get to driving around in the real world, traveling at highway speeds, compared to the Model 3. Same as with the Bolt compared to the Model 3.

 

[Kilotango74]

Incorrect. It is a design hack of the Aveo/Sonic platform. That's why it is FWD, and you can easily see this via vestigial aspects such as the foam insert under the rear storage area in a cavity that is shaped like a spare tire. The Bolt coming stock with run-flats and no spare tire, there is zero reason for this to be there other than it was just something that was never removed during the design hack of the Aveo by GMDAT.



Which is a big part of why it is actually on the receiving end of the "ass whooping" when you get to driving around in the real world, traveling at highway speeds, compared to the Model 3. Same as with the Bolt compared to the Model 3.

I would say another indicator of it not being a ground up EV build is what's under the hood. Looks like a ICE vehicle setup to me. Maybe that's just because GM wanted ease of construction, but it seems to me that a true from the ground up EV build doesn't do things this way. Hell you could practically rip all that out and drop an engine in there. Obliviously an EV can be constructed in a more efficient ways.

 

[Leafdriver333]

why it is actually on the receiving end of the "ass whooping"

maybe hyundai engineers are sadistic

 

[electrictorque]

There is a certain logic to that, but go to https://www.fueleconomy.gov and compare the Model 3 with the Hyundai Kona having basically the same range. The Kona is a pure compliance car built on an ICE platform that has been out for several years--a typical incumbent brand kludge. The Tesla barely beats it. Really, the 4th iteration Tesla with the fancy new motors is almost beat by a compliance Hyundai.

I say shenanigans to your argument. Tesla will soon be crushed by a ground-up Hyundai if they are almost beat by a compliance version. At least in a MPGe sense.

View attachment 400683

How does 0 to 60, top speed and number of battery charge cucles???? How does that compare to Tesla

 

[67King]

As practice for table tags with data from Data on Cars used for Testing Fuel Economy | US EPA:

Represented Test Veh Model	IONIQ	Standard Range Plus RWD
Rated Horsepower	117	282
Drive System Description	2-Wheel Drive, Front	2-Wheel Drive, Rear
Equivalent Test Weight (lbs.)	3500	3875
RND_ADJ_FE	184	182.3
Target Coef A (lbf)	21.17	36.01
Target Coef B (lbf/mph)	0.19016	-0.1289
Target Coef C (lbf/mph**2)	0.015762	0.01667
mph	IONIQ drag HP	Standard Range Plus RWD drag HP
5	0.30	0.48
10	0.66	0.97
15	1.10	1.51
20	1.67	2.14
25	2.39	2.88
30	3.28	3.77
35	4.40	4.85
40	5.76	6.14
45	7.40	7.68
50	9.34	9.50
55	11.63	11.64
60	14.29	14.13
65	17.35	17.00
70	20.85	20.29
75	24.82	24.02
80	29.28	28.24
85	34.28	32.98
90	39.83	38.26
95	45.98	44.13

• Drag HP does NOT include the power needed when the car is in READY (i.e., powered) state.

There is a simpler approach by getting three benchmarks, 10 miles or longer with the same starting and ending spot to normalize wind and altitude changes. Taken at 20-30 mph; 40-55 mph, and; 65-75 mph, the Whr/mile can be put into an Excel spreadsheet and a 2nd order, polynomial trend line added to a graph of the points. Then use the corresponding trend line function to plot the remaining points.

I don't have an IONIQ EV to run benchmarks. Regardless, this approach has the advantage of testing both cold and hot weather performance. It also allows testing effects of tire/wheel changes or other homegrown solutions.

Bob Wilson

Used to do engine development for Ford. Was involved in launching a few cars in the mid 2000's, and at one point, I was involved in testing a few for emissions and fuel economy. The tests are horribly outdated and unrealistic, and the governments puts a fudge factor on the results because they do not reflect the real world. Here is where that comes into play. The highway test has an average speed of 48MPH. The fact that the Tesla CD doesn't overcome the Kia's until 55MPH means that its lower CD doesn't come into play on the government tests. Yet, the Tesla still has a better highway MPGe.

So I'd turn the question around and ask how the Kia can't even beat the Tesla despite being lighter, slower, and designed to pass the regulatory tests, rather than designed to perform for its owners.

 

[Raechris]

Everyone wants to make this thread about Tesla having a better product on some criteria other than MPGe, but that is the sole topic here. Hijackers of the thread simply can’t resist the temptation.

I agree with you. It is amusing the arguments off topic. For the record I am a fanboy and love Tesla flavored koolaid.
My first thought to your original question wasn't Hyundai found guilty of false mpg numbers before (yes) and isn't this a system wide issue (yes) and didn't Tesla understate their mpge on M3 for marketing purposes (yes). So is this a reliable benchmark? Nope.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Since we have resorted to the most lowly of fanboi tactics, the personal attack. I have owned 6 Tesla’s and currently own three. I have also owned 10 other EVs from 4 or more other brands. I don’t own any publicly traded stock, or have ever shorted a stock. I am generally contrarian and especially avoid Koolaid or the spouting of nonsense of those drunk on it. Honest discourse provides the cognitive diversity to drive those toward truth. Fanboi echo chambers lead to emperors with no clothes. It is just a car folks and honestly it has perplexed me as an electrical engineer how Hyundai could fly so close to the sun.

It’s already been mentioned here by @Big Earl, but I think as an engineer, you underestimate the impact of tire type and width on efficiency (particularly the city component). To do a fair comparison, you’d have to do a real world test of the same width and tire type and compare the Ioniq Electric and SR+. We’re not going to get that here, so there is no true comparison or back and forth that can answer that question. It will always be an unknown. BUT, we can guess based on stopping distance, which I think correlates well with rolling resistance (lower rolling resistance gives longer stopping distance).

2017 Hyundai Ioniq Electric Test | Review | Car and Driver
“Trying to slow the Ioniq Electric is an entirely different matter, however, with the hatch’s low-rolling-resistance tires contributing to an inexcusably long 194-foot stopping distance from 70 mph (versus 181 feet for the Chevy Bolt EV). “

This scales (via the square of velocity) to 142.5 feet from 60mph. That is a 3240 pound vehicle. (BTW, this is a comically poor result. Or at least it would be comical if lives and limbs were not at stake.)

We have instrumented testing on this site showing the Model 3 AWD (4072 pounds) stops in 125 feet from 60mph. With MXM4s. (It is 105 feet with PS4S.)

Most likely the weight does not matter to stopping distance to first order (I don’t know) but in any case if it did for any reason it would mean the Ioniq’s tires are even less grippy.

So, this is basically a direct comparison of tire grip. So to the extent this correlates with range (it definitely does), the Model 3 is equipped with safer, range-sapping tires compared to Ioniq Electric.

I believe that is the main reason for the difference.

Aside from the vampire drain, a totally separate though related topic, my impression is that the Tesla RWD vehicles are amazingly efficient. They may even be the best right now, when comparing cars of similar range. It is hard to say, because there are a lot of variables at play. Tires are a huge factor for the city numbers. On the highway, currently the Model 3 is really hard to beat, even with the decent tires it has.

 

[UngaBunga1989]

This is the most bizarre thread in that MPGe is not the only measure of an EV just as MPG is not the only measure of an ICE vehicle. Have you driven both cars? Or looked them for that matter? The Tesla IMHO looks and drives like a sports sedan. The Hyundai? Not sure that it ticks either of those boxes. Tesla never set out to make the most efficient EV. Actually the original thesis for Tesla was to build a car that was awesome to drive to show that EV's could be outstanding cars in their own right and ALSO be electric. The target market for the Model 3 is a different customer than for the Kona or Bolt...