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How good is RWD in the winter
- Thread starter Samnas76
- Start date
Ok. So you never felt like you were losing control or you were just being cautious and driving slower than normal.
Kind of the opposite in a way. I actually like driving in the snow. I think it's fun to slide around a little bit... as long as I'm not endangering anyone else. I don't go too crazy but I'm not timid by any means. One of the first things I do when I start driving in snow is to floor it, slam on the brakes, and turn the wheel a bit to see what the limits are. Then I can adjust my driving accordingly from there.
With the 3, the traction control is so smooth and predictable that it won't let me spin the tires... at all... I've tried repeatedly. The traction control is so good at sensing any slip and adjusting very smoothly that I've gotten in the habit of just flooring it from every stop and letting the car figure out how much power it can put down. Smooth and no drama. I've never had that experience before. In other cars with traction control, the tires will still spin a bit (though limited) resulting in a bit of unpredictability (though limited). It's really impressive in action and totally predictable and confidence inspiring.
The stability control is similar. It will only let me oversteer a tiny amount. The way it brings it back in line is very smooth and predictable. My wife's Infinity was similar in that way. Very good nonetheless. There are limits to this, of course, depending on the road conditions and speed. But if you're used to driving in snow then you already know how much you need to slow down for turns.
The part that's almost exactly like any other modern car is the brakes. If you're going too fast and you slam on the brakes, it will not slow down any better than any other modern car. The stability control is still there so odds are good that it will continue to go straight. But you're not going to stop much, if any quicker than any other car with similar tires. Good snow tires are the most important thing in this situation regardless of the car.
So, for the decision of AWD vs RWD... I have never driven the AWD 3 so take that into consideration. But I have a lot of experience with the Infiniti G37x which has a great AWD system for an ICE and it's a similar sized car. And it also has traction control and stability control. IMO, getting going from a stop is by far the biggest advantage to AWD (assuming that you also have stability control). But the traction control is so good in the 3 that it honestly doesn't matter to me to have anything better. Before stability control was a thing, AWD also made a big difference in keeping the car under control when accelerating in a turn. But stability control uses the brakes and limits throttle input to keep you in line so AWD is a much smaller advantage in that situation now and might not be any advantage in the 3 (I'd be interested to drive both back to back in the snow to find out). With the experience that I've had with the LR RWD 3, the added acceleration in dry conditions would be a better justification (for me) to get the AWD than winter driving for the extra cost and loss of range.
As I said in the last post, I have no regrets at all. I absolutely love this car!
Why are you hesitating on AWD?
Having driven every combo of ICE drivetrain in snow with all weather tires, snow tires, and even summer tires on awd(unexpected snow day). Some rwd’s will be better than others. And you certainly can get by with rwd in snow country...they always did before awd was even a thing. But No matter what car...If snow is a priority AWD will ALWAYS be superior and more confidence inspiring. It typically comes at a price though. RWD is more often considered the better handling/sportier car with less understeer than the awd. Some cars offer sports suspensions that aren’t avail on awd variants. AWD is also less efficient.
With the model 3. The sportier version only comes in awd and With track mode even increasing the rwd bias. Maybe others can chime. Is the regular awd more rwd biased too?
In any event I think even the non-performance model 3 doesn’t lose much to the rwd in handling...and actually has more power and is faster. Which leads to one concern....:Efficiency. The awd has less range than rwd. Is range more important to you than having a faster and better snow capable car? We circle back to my original question lol.
If handling in the snow is the key driver of the decision between RWD and AWD, go with RWD and snow tires. I did a bunch of research on this topic and apparently the tires are more important than drive train in most situations. I have a LR RWD and dedicated snow tires and wheels. My local tire shop swaps them for “free” and I pay them twice a year for storage. This past winter with the Nokians was great. That said, the tires were overkill this winter. The next time I have to replace the winter tires I plan to go with performance winter tires. The combination of a vehicle with great traction/stability control, a winter with fewer than normal storms, and a city/state with a good system of plowing lead me to believe that I have less to worry about with the LR RWD and can likely get away with performance snows rather than winter tires. This will improve the non-snow/ice payment handling which is probably 95% of my driving even in the dead of winter where I spend my time.
That said, the AWD is more attractive for other reasons, faster, dry payment handling, etc. More speed is better but I know the RWD is fine for 95% of my use cases and I LOVE when I intentionally get the rear a little loose. The extra range is nice as well.
That said, the AWD is more attractive for other reasons, faster, dry payment handling, etc. More speed is better but I know the RWD is fine for 95% of my use cases and I LOVE when I intentionally get the rear a little loose. The extra range is nice as well.
RWD in snow is fine depending on driver skill and snow depth. Once the car is dragging bottom rwd will struggle.
The traction and stability control are excellent.
4wd, AWD,front wheel drive didn't start to go mainstream till the 80s with front wheel drive crappy cars, before that everyone drove rear wheel.
Front wheel drive is more forgiving of a bad driver, people mistake this for being better.
I have been fine the last two winter's near Green Bay with all seasons tires on my P85, not a 3 but is a rwd Tesla. My commute is fairly short but early before roads are plowed. If we got more ice or my drive were longer I would look at snows, as is though I am happy, I have owned mostly rwd cars though so I have experience.
Coworker got a 3LR and has a commute much longer than mine and bought snows but she also had no rwd experience. She is very happy all round.
The traction and stability control are excellent.
4wd, AWD,front wheel drive didn't start to go mainstream till the 80s with front wheel drive crappy cars, before that everyone drove rear wheel.
Front wheel drive is more forgiving of a bad driver, people mistake this for being better.
I have been fine the last two winter's near Green Bay with all seasons tires on my P85, not a 3 but is a rwd Tesla. My commute is fairly short but early before roads are plowed. If we got more ice or my drive were longer I would look at snows, as is though I am happy, I have owned mostly rwd cars though so I have experience.
Coworker got a 3LR and has a commute much longer than mine and bought snows but she also had no rwd experience. She is very happy all round.
SalisburySam
Active Member
As the series of replies to your OP demonstrate, the answer to your question depends on your priorities. For me, it’s all about the range, baby! Even if the LR RWD didn’t handle well in adverse weather (it does), I’d still go with RWD and just drive more cautiously in that bad weather. But that’s MY priority...what’s yours?
Enough can't be said about how good the car handles moderate winter climates. I ran the OEM all season tires in Ohio the entire winter and never once felt like the car wasn't under control.
Winter/snow tires will make it even better, but if you only have moderate snow, you would be fine with the all seasons.
Winter/snow tires will make it even better, but if you only have moderate snow, you would be fine with the all seasons.
I need a car this year. The best thing for me would be to have the model Y. In the mean time, looking to pay as less as possible until the model Y is available. No used M3 on the market(there's some but the price is crazy). So I can save $$$ if I get the RWD. But then again, if it's not good in the Canadian winters, I'll go with the AWD. That's how my thought process went. ;-)
Montreal here, had a couple snowstorms. When going uphill on slippery conditions, I wish I had AWD that time since it was very difficult for RWD alone to work the car up the hill a bit and go over small snowbanks when parking. But heck, these happens every so and then in a major city, making the cost for an AWD not really worth it for where I live. If I were living in a smaller city with less snow removal services, an AWD should be the way to go to avoid these little troubles. Yes, I have WS90 Bridgestone Winter tires, it is mandatory to have winter tires here.
The issue is not RWD, the issue is that most cars including Tesla's have essentially open differentials. What that means is that when one of the wheels looses traction, all of the power is diverted to that wheel. You can imagine how often this could cause you grief in various slippery conditions. From a stop you could be stuck with spinning wheels. Modern cars try to overcome the open differential by individually braking wheels that have less traction in an effort to divert the power to the wheel with more traction. The Dual motor still behaves like an open differential on both axles, but you have a much lower chance of getting stuck since you have two axles and all you need is either to have traction to get moving.
Here is my personal experience:
Bmw 328i RWD (open differential) - Got stuck a lot because one wheel would loose traction in moderate snow and keep spinning. Snow tires is mandatory. Tiny rear brakes get overcooked from trying to do a job they should not be doing.
Bmw M4 RWD (Active limited slip Differential) - Only one wheel needs traction and had no issues at all in the snow. I used high performance all season tires.
Corvette Z06 (Active limited slip Differential) - Again, the differential sends most of the power to the wheel with the most traction. Never got stuck as long as car was not grounded. Used snow tires that were hilariously oversized on a light car (295/335) - still had no issues.
Model 3 Dual motor - basically has the same traction as the RWD cars i had with a limited slip differential.
Here is my personal experience:
Bmw 328i RWD (open differential) - Got stuck a lot because one wheel would loose traction in moderate snow and keep spinning. Snow tires is mandatory. Tiny rear brakes get overcooked from trying to do a job they should not be doing.
Bmw M4 RWD (Active limited slip Differential) - Only one wheel needs traction and had no issues at all in the snow. I used high performance all season tires.
Corvette Z06 (Active limited slip Differential) - Again, the differential sends most of the power to the wheel with the most traction. Never got stuck as long as car was not grounded. Used snow tires that were hilariously oversized on a light car (295/335) - still had no issues.
Model 3 Dual motor - basically has the same traction as the RWD cars i had with a limited slip differential.
The dual motor is really great in rain and on most loose surfaces. But for snow and ice, it’s very much below average from what’s expected out of AWD. It drives like a good RWD vehicle until you get wheel slip, or the vehicle slides. And in some situations with the crummy stock tires, this means the car can sometimes slide a whole lot before the power is cut and the front helps out. This is no problem if you anticipate a RWD car, but it’s being sold as AWD. Commonly AWD vehicles are primary FWD, which is what people expect and it tends to be easier to control. Model 3 is literally 100% RWD until you get deep into the throttle, or the rear wheels slip. In situations where the available traction changes mid corner, this can mean the back of the car slides out even under very light throttle at slow speeds. And with regen, snapping off the throttle can sometimes make the problem worse. Letting off the throttle can cause the car to slide out a bit, or at least squirm around. This isn’t a very popular opinion for whatever reason, but the dual motor Model 3 is currently very much below average for snow driving for the average consumer that’s used to common FWD or FWD biased AWD systems. Snow tires help quite a lot and are highly recommended in areas where you get moderate snow. I’d say snow tires made more of a difference on Model 3 than any vehicle I’ve driven yet. Although it was starting from a low bar.
And as a side note, high regen with studded tires on concrete is no bueno. I’m not sure why, but the stability control is very slow to interfere and lets the car get a fair bit out of hand.
And as a side note, high regen with studded tires on concrete is no bueno. I’m not sure why, but the stability control is very slow to interfere and lets the car get a fair bit out of hand.
The last three cars I had before the Model 3 were RWD. One open, one viscous LSD, and one 'electronic' LSD. With the best rated snow tires on Tirerack, all three sucked going up any incline.
I think the traction control in my P3D is awesome. If the traction control in the RWD 3 is anything close, it looks like it a viable option from all the other posts. But I'd still lean towards an AWD if you have hills in your neck of the woods.
I think the traction control in my P3D is awesome. If the traction control in the RWD 3 is anything close, it looks like it a viable option from all the other posts. But I'd still lean towards an AWD if you have hills in your neck of the woods.
Here's a good video with various tire(s) having traction compared to an Audi Quattro. The last ones show only one tire with any grip.
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Yes, if you watch closely it is applying the brake to the spinning wheel in an attempt to transfer power to the wheel which has traction. You can tell the exact moment it succeeds because the spinning wheel completely stops the exact moment the car is able to power off the rollers. It is not a good solution, unfortunately the correct solution costs a lot more while adding complexity.
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