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How often do you experience phantom braking
- Thread starter Marius A
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- phantom braking
I just experienced this again today, as I was using autopilot on a hilly, winding road as the car approached a shadow from some oak trees. FSD will never be approved by regulators if Tesla can't get the software to see what we see.
On the contrary, this is exactly where you want cruise control, he doesn't say AP.
You do realise you referred to these statistics in the first place, not me? I was just commenting on your somewhat unusual evaluation on the poll results.
Also your second paragraph is a cop out - this forum is famous for displaying fanboy’ism to Tesla so I won’t accept it. The official Tesla forum? Sure, I can see that happening there - but this forum usually has mainly Tesla enthusiasts signing up and not the average purchaser coming to complain.
I’m feeling de ja vu - I remember all the deniers on a pro Apple forum I used to visit when back in 2016 many of us complained about keyboard issues of the butterfly mechanism. People thought it’s rare and many used to reply “you are using it wrong” or “not me” or “a forum can’t be trusted”. Surprise surprise when a year or two later we had a keyboard repair programme (4 years) to cover this defect, this still wasn’t enough to stop the fanboys. But we had the last laugh this year when now all the MacBooks reverted the butterfly back to the scissor switches to fix this 4 year nightmare. Finally, no more denial from the fanboy camp, well there are still a few who swear by their butterfly keyboard mess!
Anyway, back to the topic, anyone can see we are nowhere near any form of reliable TACC with current hardware just based on analysing the visual data on the screen, it’s that simple. You can believe software will solve it, but as a developer myself, I would bet against it. There is only so much optimisation you can do to a pixel based algorithm and fixing one thing will almost certainly open up another edge case. I’m not with Elon I’m not using LIDAR personally (in addition to the current cameras and radar).
My view is the phantom braking can only be solved by relaxing the “what if” scenarios, so you’ll get less phantom braking but will increase risk of not slowing down for actual obstacles.
*I fully appreciate this is my own opinion and not facts.
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For context, I am copying the post I was replying to here:
AP is comprised of two components:
- Auto Steer
- Traffic Aware Cruise Control (TACC)
Saying "he doesn't say AP" is a pedantic argument. TACC is an element of AP. They come as a package deal.
Personally, I would much rather have an imperfect TACC (that has been improving over time and from all I've read, has quantum leaps better than when it first rolled out) than a dumb cruise control. At this point, the only acts that TACC is perceived to be getting wrong are actions it is taking out of caution - trying to keep the driver alive.
The statement of "The system simply isn't good enough for general release." is painfully untrue. The writer is stating that something that is less than 100% is not ready. Where it is on a "percentage complete" scale is a worthy topic of discussion, but this statement about not being good enough is untrue.
Also, I strongly suspect that the slow-down that the driver experienced was probably not a function of the oncoming truck, but one of the corner. I would like to know if he took that same bend at the same speed without oncoming traffic if the car acts the same way. TACC slows down my car in curves all the time. It is a function of safety. Sometimes I think it is slower than necessary and I have the option to override it (and often do), but this is the car acting in a safe manner.
People need to remember that TACC, Auto Steer, FSD, are driver ASSISTS, not a chauffeur.
Well, the post you quoted was ME responding to YOUR response about SOMEONE ELSE'S post. I was simply making a point that the statistics were irrelevant (and you attempted to make them relevant).
We are actually in agreement on this. My point (which I obviously wasn't clear enough about) is that forums such as this one (and Apple forums - been there too) ARE full of fanboy deniers. But they are also full of people who nitpick too much.
People who regularly participate in forums, tend to be "power users" - people who are trying to use the hardware/software/car/whatever to its fullest. Could the Tesla be better - sure in lots of ways besides the topic of this thread. But it's still a pretty damned good car - better than anything available. People are allowed to complain about and people are entitled to disagree and discuss.
But I really don't see the draconian level of "anyone can see we are nowhere near any form of reliable TACC with current hardware..." I have yet to see AP/AS/TACC do anything other than take a cautious approach to anything it does. You may think it is too cautious and others may think it is not cautious enough.
And I really don't want to see a "relaxing [of] the 'what if' scenarios"
I don’t want to see a relaxing of what if scenarios either - I meant that with current hardware, my opinion is either you have phantom braking or relaxing of risk. Basically my point was “Elon give me LIDAR upgrade option in the future please”
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Had about three incidents of hard phantom braking in 3600 miles of road tripping from VA to TX which took me from about 75 to 40 very quickly. Aside from the unpleasant experience, my main concern was that it would have been extraordinarily easy for it to have resulted in being rear-ended by the cars behind me. I still use TACC, but now with some trepidation.
Phantom Braking is definitely the thorn on the the side of AP. In my case, it happens about 2 or 3 times on the way to work (13 miles). And maybe 0 - 2 times on the way back. The last return trip a couple days ago was at night and there was none the whole way. I'm still trying to nail down all the sources. Thankfully, the overpasses seem to trigger it less. I'm not sure what that's attributable to though. I can only assume it's the recent updates. It picks up the speed limits on adjacent roads fairly often, but does not always brake as a result. Still, they seem to be biggest culprit so far. It hasn't been enough of a bother for me to stop using it though.
iwannam3
Active Member
I found you can't pause a bit between bug report and saying phantom braking, i do it every (few) time.
I think this is kind of a good meta poll. We have over 100 votes and it gives a certain insight into how often the active posters on the community experience it.
"Almost never" is very subjective, and it's also self-reporting which is inherently biased, so the more annoyed the more likely to say "almost always".
Based on the results I think it's ok to assume that somewhere around half the forum participants don't find phantom braking problematic, and the rest find it problematic to varying degrees.
I think it's awful, others find it annoying, and some find it scary. How you feel about it is up to you, and nobody can say your feelings are wrong.
However, you can just not use it.
I know it's worse in a TM3 than in a TMS (newest TMS I've used is a Q1 2019), and I never experienced it this severely the years I drove an Ioniq.
I feel motivated to try out different remedies. I drove the same 200km+ stretch every Wednesday, I'm going to try out one change at a time and see how much of a difference it makes. Hopefully get something good enough to make a sticky on "How to reduce phantom braking"
"Almost never" is very subjective, and it's also self-reporting which is inherently biased, so the more annoyed the more likely to say "almost always".
Based on the results I think it's ok to assume that somewhere around half the forum participants don't find phantom braking problematic, and the rest find it problematic to varying degrees.
I think it's awful, others find it annoying, and some find it scary. How you feel about it is up to you, and nobody can say your feelings are wrong.
However, you can just not use it.
I know it's worse in a TM3 than in a TMS (newest TMS I've used is a Q1 2019), and I never experienced it this severely the years I drove an Ioniq.
I feel motivated to try out different remedies. I drove the same 200km+ stretch every Wednesday, I'm going to try out one change at a time and see how much of a difference it makes. Hopefully get something good enough to make a sticky on "How to reduce phantom braking"
You need to understand that the slowdown in the situation I quoted had nothing to do with the severity of the bend and everything to do with the oncoming vehicle, the road in question is limited because it is a small community, hence the speed cameras, without the restriction it would be very easily driven at 60mph.
My issue with the TACC and hence my accurate statement "The system simply isn't good enough for general release" is because it is floored in too many ways. When it works it works well, when it doesn't it's a compete pita. It will develop and get better but it's not there yet, in the meantime for those of us that have routes/journeys where it doesn't function as it should, it could be improved massively by having the option to use either the TACC or switch to a basic CC.
My daily commute is 45 miles of mixed roads, I know the areas where I need to accelerate gently to avoid sudden speed changes or even turn the TACC off because it's going to cause sudden and abrupt slow downs or braking, I therefore "manage" the system to get a smooth and safe journey. This shouldn't be necessary though because with a non-TA CC it needs a tenth of the driver input to achieve the same.
To think that similar technology would be used in FSD vehicles would be passenger hell, there's a lot of development needed before we get anywhere near acceptability.
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