How Tesla Will Fall - Ben Sullins

[Bouba]

Well said Sir.

These cars affect me emotionally. And when the EV topic comes up, i always start with the fact that there would be no EV's without Elon. They have changed the course of history.

I can't imagine feeling so emotional about another car or another company. I think that's why these debates and arguments and fights get really heated. A lot of people's opinions about Tesla have a strong emotional component. I fall into the category of becoming alarmed about the future of Tesla. The Ben Sullins video struck a nerve that was already plenty sensitive.

My biggest fear is their poor quality, which will eventually become well known to the general public, if left unchecked. Improving quality will be the single biggest way to lessen the strain on overloaded service centers. I'm eagerly waiting for Austin and Berlin to fully ramp up and hit their stride. The quality of cars coming from those factories will indicate which direction Tesla is headed.

I hate to say it, but...the made in China Teslas have pretty good quality control...

 

[mangrove79]

I don't think any video (YouTube or otherwise) can be made rebuttal-proof. Trying to do that you'll have to create hours-long videos citing sources and presenting all perspectives on even the simplest topics, and in the end you'll still fail to reach that goal. The debate on where Tesla is and where it's going is a healthy one, to be expected for a company still in its infancy. I do hope that social media influencers do play a bigger role in swaying Tesla's direction since on the macro-scale, influencers do represent the voice of their followers (while also influencing their followers at the same time).

 

[hatch]

I hate to say it, but...the made in China Teslas have pretty good quality control...

Do you have one or have you seen one? That's very encouraging. And then a 3rd generation production facility should in theory be even better. Another thing i'm waiting for, is a side by side comparison of an Austin vs Freemont car.

 

[Bouba]

Do you have one or have you seen one? That's very encouraging. And then a 3rd generation production facility should in theory be even better. Another thing i'm waiting for, is a side by side comparison of an Austin vs Freemont car.

I have a 3rd Quarter 2021 MIC M3LR....I was on the lookout for defects because of all the fuss about the early production run at Freemont...but so far (touch wood) it’s all good..

 

[jonquiljo]

I've had a 2020 LR (stealth performance) for about 2 years now. My wife and I are older and we are seriously thinking about becoming a one car family. Two cars are a hassle and we really don't need two. Our 2nd car (Mercedes) is kind of old and the Tesla Model 3 really isn't a family car - so we will buy a new one - probably in the spring. Cost, within reason, is not an issue.

My wife and I talked about getting a Model S - but eventually shot it down simply because I really don't think Tesla is an ideal car to own if you don't have easy access to a 2nd car. One accident or even a maintenance issue and you are dealing with a rental for a very long time. Yes, this could happen with a Mercedes, BMW, etc. - but generally repairs don't take weeks or longer (months) - and accidents possibly far longer.

And then there is Elon Musk. I'm afraid that after owning a Model 3 for 2 years I can say that Elon Musk really becomes a louder voice in your head than you want him to be. He's obviously one smart guy but cannot keep his mouth shut for very long. And no, I am not a fan of FSD - and his recent comments on Tesla and FSD are just making things really strange. Tesla needs to clean up it's public image - though that is no reason to buy or not buy one.

Lastly, my Model 3 is far from a luxury car. It is a high tech version of a 1990 Honda. It's a decent car - but not one that really reflects a $55,000 expenditure. Looking at a Model S, it is really not that much better - and for $110,000 - it should be.

So, we will likely get a decent sized Mercedes - possibly BMW, etc. Even though we care about our carbon footprint, we don't put that many miles on a car each year - and certainly don't travel by car. I will miss the EV world, and Tesla is the only EV that is worth buying right now. Unfortunately, the Tesla experience is a bit lacking. Maybe someday, I will be able to tune Elon Musk out of my head.

 

[hatch]

I've had a 2020 LR (stealth performance) for about 2 years now.

So let's pretend i'm a neighbor that you know fairly well - we get along and have the occasional conversation. I'm thinking about an EV (really think i want one). I'm worried about gas prices skyrocketing, i want to reduce my carbon footprint. I'm sick of my 10 year old car outrageous repair bills - most of them related to the ICE. You take me for a drive (let me drive a little too), and i'm blown away by the acceleration, one pedal driving, and the tech.

I value your opinion. What do you think i should get?

 

[TechOps]

As long as they can sell every car they can make, they absolutely do not care. This will all catch up with them some day of course, and when it does it will happen very fast and be a total bloodbath. I hope they come out the other side a far better company then they are now, but at this point I am not holding my breath.

I've bought 2 Teslas in the last two months. A model Y P, which came out near perfect, and a Model 3 LR, which had atrocious paint, including dirt under the paint, a lot of paint nibs, massive orange peel, and fish eyes. Not to mention deep scratches in the clear coat added during delivery, uneven hood alignment, and some other small panel issues but not as bad as in the past.

I'm a huge Tesla fan and own a lot of Tesla stock, and I've had two Model S's before these. I can live with the inconsistency and crappy paint quality as a Tesla quirk, though I prefer they clean it up with Giga Texas.

However what I can't live with is that I was sent to a church parking lot to pick up my $60k Model 3, no one from Tesla was there, and I couldn't get someone on the phone when calling the extension of the local service center. Teslas are still bought by humans, and having inconsistent and poor service through an app when making such a major life purchase is not going to scale.

I agree that the pain will come fast and it will be large. Regulatory action, losing class action lawsuit(s), major negative press (much worse than we've seen thus far), etc. As stated I'm a huge fan and investor; I believe in the mission and ingenuity of Tesla, but they do at some point need to hire grown ups who know how to manage operations and customer service.

I thought the video was fairly accurate and in my 1st person experience, it's a reasonable premise. Not sure why people feel like they have to chime in with indignant comments that "I'm a boomer and don't watch clickbait videos"... just don't watch it, and move on to the next thread.

 

[roblab]

My wife and I talked about getting a Model S - but eventually shot it down simply because I really don't think Tesla is an ideal car to own if you don't have easy access to a 2nd car.

And then there is Elon Musk. I'm afraid that after owning a Model 3 for 2 years I can say that Elon Musk really becomes a louder voice in your head than you want him to be.

Lastly, my Model 3 is far from a luxury car. It is a high tech version of a 1990 Honda. It's a decent car - but not one that really reflects a $55,000 expenditure. Looking at a Model S, it is really not that much better - and for $110,000 - it should be.

My wife and I own a Model S. For a while we owned a Scion, and then a Prius. But I don't see your worry about owning only one car. If you have an accident, (and I did), most auto shops supply loaners. And THERE IS HARDLY ANY MAINTENANCE, so your car should never be in the shop. I've put over 250,000 miles on Teslas and never had any problems.

As to Musk, why are you listening to him? How can he possibly affect your driving experience?

And then, to your car. It was never promoted as a luxury car, but an ELECTRIC CAR. It does that job admirably, possibly better than any other brand. Of course, electrics have batteries, BIG batteries, that are expensive to build. You know that. It's obvious that you want to buy a fancy car and add a bunch of options to it, because the list price of a Model S (I own one) is a LOT lower than $110K. You can even jack up the price of a Model 3. Or a Hundai or a Toyota! But why a 1990 Honda? Have you checked the price of an electric Honda? No? Maybe it's because they aren't able to build one cheap.

I own a Model 3 and a Model S. My S is a far better car than my 3, and for twice the price, it should be. But it is. And batteries still cost more than gas engines.

 

[Barklikeadog]

I've had a 2020 LR (stealth performance) for about 2 years now. My wife and I are older and we are seriously thinking about becoming a one car family. Two cars are a hassle and we really don't need two. Our 2nd car (Mercedes) is kind of old and the Tesla Model 3 really isn't a family car - so we will buy a new one - probably in the spring. Cost, within reason, is not an issue.

My wife and I talked about getting a Model S - but eventually shot it down simply because I really don't think Tesla is an ideal car to own if you don't have easy access to a 2nd car. One accident or even a maintenance issue and you are dealing with a rental for a very long time. Yes, this could happen with a Mercedes, BMW, etc. - but generally repairs don't take weeks or longer (months) - and accidents possibly far longer.

And then there is Elon Musk. I'm afraid that after owning a Model 3 for 2 years I can say that Elon Musk really becomes a louder voice in your head than you want him to be. He's obviously one smart guy but cannot keep his mouth shut for very long. And no, I am not a fan of FSD - and his recent comments on Tesla and FSD are just making things really strange. Tesla needs to clean up it's public image - though that is no reason to buy or not buy one.

Lastly, my Model 3 is far from a luxury car. It is a high tech version of a 1990 Honda. It's a decent car - but not one that really reflects a $55,000 expenditure. Looking at a Model S, it is really not that much better - and for $110,000 - it should be.

So, we will likely get a decent sized Mercedes - possibly BMW, etc. Even though we care about our carbon footprint, we don't put that many miles on a car each year - and certainly don't travel by car. I will miss the EV world, and Tesla is the only EV that is worth buying right now. Unfortunately, the Tesla experience is a bit lacking. Maybe someday, I will be able to tune Elon Musk out of my head.

You can have the best of both worlds. The greenest car you can buy... is a used one. Doesn't matter if its EV or gas. That is worlds better than ordering
a new one/buying a new one. Footprint is already there.
Far too often I see people around here talking about trading in their 2-3-4 year old Tesla for the latest and greatest. They don't -need- a cybertruck, but they -want- one. Yikes.
You're(generically, not you personally) better off buying a 30-40mpg Toyota and driving the wheels off of it for a decade.

 

[jonquiljo]

It's like I said - I am older and don't drive much. I am also a cancer patient and won't live forever. So the 4,000 miles a year we drive is not a big cost concern. I don't see that my carbon footprint will be any less with an EV than ICE. Remember, this is California where there is going to be way too many EV's for our electrical infrastructure to handle. Remember rolling blackouts, public safety power shut offs - no one is working on them.? We have one service center in our county and it is overloaded and annoying everyone I know with a Tesla (lots of people). Tesla needs to work on service issues. Sure they break less, but they need to be able to fix what does break in a reasonable amount of time. And accident repair? Oh Boy!

I've had lots of Porsches and Mercedes my whole life. I am used to cars that don't look like they were made in a huge rush to get them out the door. The cost of gas is irrelevant to me. The headache of owning a car is very relevant to me.

I have had the latest and greatest - a 2020 Model 3 stealth performance. Been there done that and I am glad I did. I have lots of neighbors with Model S's and they all complain about the fact that they still have to own another car if the Model S ends up in an accident or needing repair. If we went to two cars, this would not be a big issue - but we are going from 2 to 1 because 2 aren't really needed.

 

[SmokyPeat]

You can have the best of both worlds. The greenest car you can buy... is a used one. Doesn't matter if its EV or gas. That is worlds better than ordering
a new one/buying a new one. Footprint is already there.
Far too often I see people around here talking about trading in their 2-3-4 year old Tesla for the latest and greatest. They don't -need- a cybertruck, but they -want- one. Yikes.
You're(generically, not you personally) better off buying a 30-40mpg Toyota and driving the wheels off of it for a decade.

The emissions footprint from manufacturing is already there on used ICEV, but the majority of ICEV emissions come from the use phase. Jonq sounds like he's looking for a new vehicle anyhow.

 

[hatch]

I have a 3rd Quarter 2021 MIC M3LR....I was on the lookout for defects because of all the fuss about the early production run at Freemont...but so far (touch wood) it’s all good..

So the above comment is hopeful. We can only hope Made in China quality is equaled or even improved upon at Austin and Berlin.

Plus they are opening another Tesla location soon in my neck of the woods - about 20 minutes away from where i will be taking delivery. This is acknowledgement that they need more service centers, since it is so close to an existing one. All is not lost yet, at least on the quality and service sides.

New Tesla Store Location Coming to West Chester, PA - 2022

Just spotted this. Tesla moving into currently Jaguar dealership location in West Chester (Westtown). Route 3 @ 352 I literally just moved from a house less than a mile from here. https://www.mychesco.com/a/news/business/colliers-arranges-new-tesla-location-in-west-chester/

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[Barklikeadog]

The emissions footprint from manufacturing is already there on used ICEV, but the majority of ICEV emissions come from the use phase. Jonq sounds like he's looking for a new vehicle anyhow.

I'm just speaking to the best way to balance ICE and carbon footprint.
It's no secret that EVs are a much bigger footprint to produce, but the breakeven point isn't that far off depending on the
miles driven and how it is charged. I'm assuming the guy charges off the grid like most....

EV
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
x-----------x------------x-------------x--------------- x---------------x----------------x (10 years)

ICE
XXXXX
XXXXX
x- x-x-- x--x--x --x--x--x V------x-------x------x -----x------x------x------x------x-----x (10 years)
-------------------- Buy it here! (he said he doesn't drive much)

 

[ScoobyDoo82]

Do you have one or have you seen one? That's very encouraging. And then a 3rd generation production facility should in theory be even better. Another thing i'm waiting for, is a side by side comparison of an Austin vs Freemont car.

I have a friend in Norway who got a Model 3 from Shanghai. It is a world better in quality. It’s noticeable the moment the door shuts.

Still some work to go for Tesla for sure, but the Giga-Shanghai produced cars appear to be built to a higher standard.

 

[240vPlug]

I'm seeing similar frustrations in this TMC community. It feels like this is a growing problem which Tesla needs to address, but they are either blind to it or just don't care.

You know he is exactly right. The SC folks have been great to me but customer service at corporate and the finance/lease are horrible. Tesla policies are awful as well especially with regard to leasing (e.g. no buyout, high money factors, artificially low residual). I will save my Tesla leasing complaints for another time. I have a thread over on the Model Y forum about that.

My take is that Tesla is out to extract every cent it can from each customer with zero regard about retaining future loyalty from. Just like Ben said it is not a sustainable long term strategy. Just look at the BBB for Tesla and for GM. Keep in mind GM sells a LOT more vehicles then Tesla!

Tesla makes an awesome product except for some quality issues like paint. Their customer service and some of their policies are just terrible.

 

[Bouba]

My take is that Tesla is out to extract every cent it can from each customer with zero regard about retaining future loyalty from.

I am not so sure…yes, I had huge problems with Tesla sales staff…but they encouraged me to buy the M3 SR++ without FSD..they told me it wasn’t worth spending the extra money on…of course I disagreed.. I love my car but doubling the price makes no sense.. I just wanted it but they weren’t out for my money

 

[OrthoSurg]

Why has Ben Sullins started to hate Tesla and Musk? The last video I saw from him was him and his wife super happy taking delivery of their Tesla Model Y. Then they made a video about some panel gaps defects and some interior issue and the trunk wasn’t closing properly if I remember correctly. Did they have bad Tesla service after that?

 

[Bouba]

Why has Ben Sullins started to hate Tesla and Musk? The last video I saw from him was him and his wife super happy taking delivery of their Tesla Model Y. Then they made a video about some panel gaps defects and some interior issue and the trunk wasn’t closing properly if I remember correctly. Did they have bad Tesla service after that?

It certainly looks like revenge porn..

 

[Mengy]

Why has Ben Sullins started to hate Tesla and Musk? The last video I saw from him was him and his wife super happy taking delivery of their Tesla Model Y. Then they made a video about some panel gaps defects and some interior issue and the trunk wasn’t closing properly if I remember correctly. Did they have bad Tesla service after that?

Other EV manufacturers started paying Ben to hype up their competing EV's, so now he actively slanders Tesla in order to prop up others who butter his bread. Also Tesla shut down their referral program which Ben was profiting greatly from.

In short, his personal goals now benefit from Tesla FUD where as he used to benefit greatly from hyping Tesla up, so he's migrated his content more towards anti-Tesla stuff.

When you follow the money many strange behaviors become very clear. In other words, he's an incredibly selfish shill.

 

[tldickerson]

@jonquiljo, I suggest you take a look at the new Mercedes EQS. That's going to be my next EV for sure.