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How Tesla Will Fall - Ben Sullins
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jabloomf1230
Minister of Silly Walks
Thanks for posting this. The Sullins video is a classic hit job designed to generate clicks. It's well done and makes numerous points about Tesla the company. However, like the recent Forbes articles on FSD, a few of the points are valid, some are patently false and the bulk are debatable. The rebuttal video that you posted really underscores this view. It's worth watching, despite its length.
Elon Musk has pissed off so many important people and institutions at this point, that it's hard to find unbiased opinions regarding Tesla. Some here on the TMC forums have argued that Elon should stop his public pronouncements and be replaced by a PR department. Keep this point in mind though. On the average, GM spends roughly $1000 US on advertising per each car that it sells in the US. Overall media relations must just add to that figure. I personally don't want Tesla to do anything extra that is PR-related except improve communications between owners and its service centers.
Tiger
Active Member
Will be interesting to see if this is just another case of any publicity is good publicity. Wonder who copied who's but hurt ...
Here yet another rebuttal:
Here yet another rebuttal:
Barklikeadog
Active Member
Alright... I had to stop after 10 minutes after the whole 'amazing value of robotaxi' schpiel.
If it pays off, "you're able to run your vehicle as a robotaxi and make insane amounts of money"
"I think it (robotaxi) is gonna happen fairly soon."
The guy is a kool-aid drinker. Tesla should hire him into the HR dept.
In the end, Tesla's fate won't be decided by the battle of the youtube videos. Word of mouth will be super important - which after enough time and enough vehicles out there, turns into a kind of "common knowledge" about a brand, right or wrong. Certain images or opinions come to mind when someone mentions Toyota, Honda, Chevy, Ford, BMW, Mercedes, Kia, Yugo. I'll bet everyone reading this is thinking "i'd never consider one of those" regarding some of those names.
The real question is, what images will "Tesla" invoke with the general population in the future? Is Tesla protecting the brand? Do they care?
And yeah, i'm sorry but IMO anyone that buys into the whole "car is worth 5 times what i paid for it" scam, is just not using critical thinking.
I'm expecting my car to be awesome, with problems and/or dislikes. I've done my due diligence. I'm going to try my best to inspect the car thoroughly, within reason. One thing i know, is i'm paying more than double what i've ever paid for a car. If i was doing the sensible thing, i would not get this car. I also know that my 24 hour demo last year absolutely blew me away. I can't help myself. I'm really stretching our finances to buy it. If i end up getting betrayed by Tesla, i'm going to be pissed. People in the real world (not social media) are going to hear about it.
The real question is, what images will "Tesla" invoke with the general population in the future? Is Tesla protecting the brand? Do they care?
And yeah, i'm sorry but IMO anyone that buys into the whole "car is worth 5 times what i paid for it" scam, is just not using critical thinking.
I'm expecting my car to be awesome, with problems and/or dislikes. I've done my due diligence. I'm going to try my best to inspect the car thoroughly, within reason. One thing i know, is i'm paying more than double what i've ever paid for a car. If i was doing the sensible thing, i would not get this car. I also know that my 24 hour demo last year absolutely blew me away. I can't help myself. I'm really stretching our finances to buy it. If i end up getting betrayed by Tesla, i'm going to be pissed. People in the real world (not social media) are going to hear about it.
Barklikeadog
Active Member
People love to stretch finances for autos and mortgages. And the people approving that loan don't have to pay it every month.
My registered rep side says... Don't do it!
ScoobyDoo82
Member
I mean… what a tricky bag of boobs. Elon is a troll. Tesla and it’s image have Elon to thank the most for this. I love my car, but hate this company. I love my car enough to put up with the bullshit but am slowly becoming more frustrated with this brand by the day.
The lack of proper customer service is a big snowballing problem that will no doubt catch up to them one day.
Once legacy OEM’s are producing a comparable product and Tesla starts to see a decline only then will things change. It’s no longer 2015 and a Tesla is the only good product. Rivian, Hyundai, Ford, and GM are catching up - fast. Mercedes, Audi, and Porsche are very close. In other words.. 5 years from now the Tesla “bubble” will start to fizzle, eventually Elon will walk away from Tesla to focus on SpaceX full time. It’s going to be interesting to watch what happens over the next few years.
The lack of proper customer service is a big snowballing problem that will no doubt catch up to them one day.
Once legacy OEM’s are producing a comparable product and Tesla starts to see a decline only then will things change. It’s no longer 2015 and a Tesla is the only good product. Rivian, Hyundai, Ford, and GM are catching up - fast. Mercedes, Audi, and Porsche are very close. In other words.. 5 years from now the Tesla “bubble” will start to fizzle, eventually Elon will walk away from Tesla to focus on SpaceX full time. It’s going to be interesting to watch what happens over the next few years.
patrick42h
Member
To be honest, I felt his rebuttals were hit-or-miss. He lost me when he implied it was okay for Tesla to sell Full Self Driving at additional cost for the promise of future value and functionality. I do not believe that customers should be treated as investors, just as customers who pay for a product with an advertised feature set at an agreed price. Nothing more, nothing less.
It should not be on the customer to research the state of autonomous driving, computer vision, or AI followed by individual analysis of the legislative hurdles in their jurisdiction that would enable them in order to make an informed decision. Doing right by the customer means delivering a 100% complete product to the customer at the agreed time and price. It seems so sleazy to me try to upsell customers on a feature set that has not even left the R&D stage yet and is unfinished.
Technical reasons set aside, there is no regulatory framework that I am aware of for assigning responsibility/liability to an unsupervised vehicle. Even if Tesla were able to deliver Level 3 or Level 4 autonomy today, their customers would not be able to use any of the unsupervised autonomy features (like robotaxi) until regulators got caught up. So I feel that it is premature to ask for $12,000 per car for this.
I wish that Tesla erred more toward doing the right thing for the customer today rather than charging extra now for something that might not even materialize in the future.
I don’t know (yet) if my local Tesla service centers are good or not...what I do know is that the worst car dealership I have ever run across (and I’ve been to and lived in many countries) is Volvo...so the bar is really low for Tesla to be better
In my opinion...the notion that you are investing in the future is just another way Mr Musk has shaken up the industry. You buy a car..that is fully functional.. and if you still have some discretionary funds left you can buy FSD...some people have bought the car and then bought the shares..it’s the same thing. As a consumer product it’s very clever....you can take any number out of the sky (the video guy said $100,000) of what a fully developed level 4/5 system is worth...and then say does 10/12k give you 10/12% of that function ? I think yes...so you have value for money with the possibility that you might consider it a future savings
Barklikeadog
Active Member
I thought Mr. Musk wanted to create a vehicle safer than any other ever. If most people cannot afford your safety feature, then what do you have?
shoulda-came up with a more appropriate name for this advanced cruise control, no overpromises.
coulda-charged something reasonable and kept the same price (perhaps 2k)
woulda-had virtually everyone buying it, made more money, and had less liability
Perhaps, after it’s perfected, he will bundle it in the car , like Autopilot....who knows....just like he’s opening up the superchargers
to fulfill his other promise of doing it for the planet. Predicting what Mr Musk will do next is just as fraught....but it could make you rich 
ScoobyDoo82
Member
israndy
Supercharger Hunter
Are you of the opinion that Tesla has a DEMAND problem? There are not enough EV batteries on the planet to allow Tesla to make all the cars that people want. And the more that people get to try those people's Teslas, the more demand increases.
In the end it will be safer for everyone, but the mission statement is about accelerating the transition to electric vehicles, pay attention.
Barklikeadog
Active Member
pay attention? arrogant much?
IF you READ any of my posts, you would see that on the topic of full self driving, I have repeatedly (and in this thread) suggested that they would sell just as many cars
without the promise(and liability to the company) of FSD/Autopilot. Hopefully others who read this will understand that my suggestion is that they have a huge DEMAND
and don't need the extra over-promises/underdelivers to move vehicles.
Barklikeadog
Sell something that currently exists. Anything more is creating an enormous liability that you have to deliver on. You will still sell XXX number of cars withouthaving that obligation hanging over your business.
I do not know of another large manufacturer that does not have similar issues. On most every forum there are customers complaining about poor service, long wait times for parts, poor communications, over priced repair parts and how their specific problem was not fix quickly enough to satisfy them. All major auto companies have service centers of one form or another to make repairs to their cars. Auto mechanics and independent dealership models do not have a sterling reputation here either.
Customers want perfect cars. They tend to get upset when they are stranded along side the road with their families inside, don't get the warranty coverage for every claim, have to wait for parts, get over charged. You can get tire rotations or flats fixed for free at independant tire stores, but the factory will charge for that service etc.
While Tesla is indeed showing growing pains, they are still growing while other manufacturers are shrinking.
There would be no Tesla as we know it without Elon. There would no EVs coming out of the other companies without Elon.
If you get hyper focused on a companies faults, you can totally miss it's virtues.
Customers want perfect cars. They tend to get upset when they are stranded along side the road with their families inside, don't get the warranty coverage for every claim, have to wait for parts, get over charged. You can get tire rotations or flats fixed for free at independant tire stores, but the factory will charge for that service etc.
While Tesla is indeed showing growing pains, they are still growing while other manufacturers are shrinking.
There would be no Tesla as we know it without Elon. There would no EVs coming out of the other companies without Elon.
If you get hyper focused on a companies faults, you can totally miss it's virtues.
Well said Sir.
These cars affect me emotionally. And when the EV topic comes up, i always start with the fact that there would be no EV's without Elon. They have changed the course of history.
I can't imagine feeling so emotional about another car or another company. I think that's why these debates and arguments and fights get really heated. A lot of people's opinions about Tesla have a strong emotional component. I fall into the category of becoming alarmed about the future of Tesla. The Ben Sullins video struck a nerve that was already plenty sensitive.
My biggest fear is their poor quality, which will eventually become well known to the general public, if left unchecked. Improving quality will be the single biggest way to lessen the strain on overloaded service centers. I'm eagerly waiting for Austin and Berlin to fully ramp up and hit their stride. The quality of cars coming from those factories will indicate which direction Tesla is headed.
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