The longer you wait, the weaker your claim is. I would have zero expectation you would previal in court a year from now.
My claim was literally based on the car being under warranty.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
How to sue Tesla over historical claims
- Thread starter gearchruncher
- Start date
My claim was literally based on the car being under warranty.
seenhear
Member
This was my issue. I posted here looking to make a small claims case about the crappy MCU1, as well. But by the time I even heard about OP's experience, I was almost out of my extended service agreement, never mind the original warranty which was long past.
IMO, the primary issue is around the MCU1 hardware. It's a tougher claim to make and almost impossible outside of warranty, IMO. The longer you wait on MCU1 claims, the more it looks like it's not really a problem for you and you're just looking for a free upgrade. I think it would still be possible, but it would be a lot of effort to build the case and defend the timeline.
For FSD hardware it's a different scene in a way. For one, if you go ahead and pay for an MCU2 upgrade from MCU1, Tesla has been including the FSD computer upgrade with this at the same time for no extra cost, for most people I've heard from in the past year or so. Also if you purchase FSD software rather than rent it, they will upgrade your FSD computer. It's only for the case of wanting to try/rent FSD that there's an argument to get the computer upgraded for free.
Second, the claim for FSD functionality is pretty clearly not related to warranty. And waiting past one's warranty is understandable as the FSD software hasn't been ready to try, let alone interesting to most people until recently. HW2.5 was clearly advertised at time of purchase as being sufficient for FSD. Now that FSD is here and available to try out, we need to pay for more hardware.
Honestly if you really just want the FSD computer upgrade, I bet that if you make the above case to the Tesla Service Center, and escalate to local management, most people will probably find they can get the FSD hardware for free.
But for me, if I'm going to surrender my car to my local TSC for a week while they upgrade the FSD computer, I am going to want a new MCU out of it too. So either way, I'm paying. I can't be bothered to try to build the out-of-warranty case at this time. And my MCU1 has actually been functioning OK for the past year or so, surprisingly. It's slow at almost everything it does, but it hasn't outright crashed in quite some time. So again, making a claim that it's not functioning properly would be tough. It's not great, but it's not as bad as it was. Keeping the nav history clear seems to help (tip from my TSC service manager.)
They clearly charge you and force you to pay for HW3 as part of this upgrade. This is still something that could easly be sued for, as it's 100% clear that your car did not have "all HW needed for FSD capability" if they are charging you for a HW upgrade:
Infotainment Upgrade | Tesla Support
Upgrade your Infotainment system to access new features, and for a more advanced and smoother user experience.
$500 in damages to sue for right there if you do the upgrade, and if you're already in court, you might as well make the argument about how Tesla's defective product led to safety recalls that led to MCU1 no longer functioning as originally sold and they cannot legally revert to old software, so they are liable for the MCU2 upgrade as well.
Tesomega
Member
The problem I am facing is Tesla is removing cars from Safety Recalls related to FSD for MCU1 cars, the E.g Tesla sent me a Safety Recall notice for FSD ( NHTSA # 23V-085) in 04/2023, now Tesla claims my car is not impacted by this recall, no notice of why there was change or what caused them to remove it. I meet all of the criteria for the recall.They clearly charge you and force you to pay for HW3 as part of this upgrade. This is still something that could easly be sued for, as it's 100% clear that your car did not have "all HW needed for FSD capability" if they are charging you for a HW upgrade:
Infotainment Upgrade | Tesla Support
Upgrade your Infotainment system to access new features, and for a more advanced and smoother user experience.www.tesla.com
$500 in damages to sue for right there if you do the upgrade, and if you're already in court, you might as well make the argument about how Tesla's defective product led to safety recalls that led to MCU1 no longer functioning as originally sold and they cannot legally revert to old software, so they are liable for the MCU2 upgrade as well.
Then ask them to go back to an older software version which does not have the issues you are having with MCU1.
Have you not had any updates since February 16, 2023 when that recall was issued and they said the update should be out in weeks. (Most OTA recalls are completed before the letter is ever sent.)
I would think most likely you have a version that fixed that, otherwise it could be because that recall has likely been superceded by the new recall.
Tesomega
Member
Well, I am one of the few who has an FSDb on an MCU1 car; I am not letting Tesla wiggle around this anymore..; they need to provide an FSDb version that addresses this Recall.
Tesomega
Member
the Tesla webpage for this says it's still not available. I am not sure how Tesla Fixes OTA Recalls, I don't have information that the Recall has been fixed. And Tesla says my car is not impacted by this recall, it's a joke.
What version are you on?
I'm sure they will, but there is no timeline for when they have to have a fix for the recall. Sometimes it could be years for a fix to be available and make it to every vehicle.
Where is the the page that says the fix for the February recall is not available yet?
Tesomega
Member
Update Vehicle Firmware to Improve Certain FSD Beta Driving Operations | Tesla Support
Tesla has issued a voluntary recall on certain Model S, Model 3, Model X and Model Y vehicles that have installed or pending installation of software that contains the Full Self-Driving (FSD) Beta feature. This recall affects only US and CA vehicles. Affected vehicles were identified based on...
Ok, now what version are you currently running?Update Vehicle Firmware to Improve Certain FSD Beta Driving Operations | Tesla Support
Tesla has issued a voluntary recall on certain Model S, Model 3, Model X and Model Y vehicles that have installed or pending installation of software that contains the Full Self-Driving (FSD) Beta feature. This recall affects only US and CA vehicles. Affected vehicles were identified based on...
m5james
Member
What's your feelings on luck about someone being a 2nd owner? I've got a '17 X P100D, MCU1 w/ I believe AP2.5 cameras, had FSD for about a month and haven't had it since for almost a year. My local service center in Lynnwood, WA says I have no pending camera upgrades or anything, I've asked them if a software reflash might re-enable it but they just point me to FSDBeta@Tesla, which I've written a handful of times and have gotten no reply.
seenhear
Member
You are correct! Last time I checked on the mcu upgrade, they did not spell out the price difference for the AP HW versions, so there wasn't a clearly lower cost if you already had AP3 computer. That said, there's probably a very small number of cars on the road with MCU1 and APWH3 computer.They clearly charge you and force you to pay for HW3 as part of this upgrade. This is still something that could easly be sued for, as it's 100% clear that your car did not have "all HW needed for FSD capability" if they are charging you for a HW upgrade:
Infotainment Upgrade | Tesla Support
Upgrade your Infotainment system to access new features, and for a more advanced and smoother user experience.
$500 in damages to sue for right there if you do the upgrade, and if you're already in court, you might as well make the argument about how Tesla's defective product led to safety recalls that led to MCU1 no longer functioning as originally sold and they cannot legally revert to old software, so they are liable for the MCU2 upgrade as well.
EDIT: Also, the infotainment upgrade is available to AP1 cars, and cars with no AP at all. So... that lower price may be for pre-AP2 cars. Still if they charge the lower price for cars with AP3 computer, then it's a problem, as you stated.
Last edited:
Tesla started charging more for HW2.5 cars than HW3 cars on April 13th, 2021. Here's the wayback machine before April 13, 2021, and then after, where the price goes from $1500 for all cars to $1500/$2500.:
Infotainment Upgrade
Upgrade your infotainment system for a more advanced and smoother user experience.
web.archive.org
Infotainment Upgrade
Upgrade your infotainment system for a more advanced and smoother user experience.
web.archive.org
The reason for the MCU1/HW3 situation is people that actually bought FSD and had gotten a "free" HW3 upgrade before the MCU1 situation. This is a hack Tesla is doing to say that if you paid for FSD, the upgrade is $1,500, but if you didn't pay for FSD, it's $2,500. I promise you that even if you have HW2.5 and you ask for the MCU2 upgrade, if you have FSD on the car, they won't charge you the $1000 extra, because if they did, you'd just go "give me my HW3 upgrade first for free, then do the MCU2."
All of this is exactly what you should bring to a judge next to Tesla's own page that says "All cars have all hardware needed for FSD CAPABILITY." How is the latter true if Tesla charges differently based on what HW the car was produced with?
1st or 2nd owner makes no difference. I was a second owner. Tesla falsely stated something about the car, and that lie persists no matter how many people owned the car between. Your argument is "I would not have paid as much for this car when I bought it if Tesla had been honest that a paid for HW upgrade would be needed." Boom, damages.
Your chances are good in Lynnwood since that's my service center, and that's where I won.
However, your world is different since your issue appears to be trying to convince Tesla to upgrade cameras? That's hard to prove damages on, but not impossible. I guess one option is to actually just pay for new cameras, document that you suddenly got updated software with additional FSD CAPABILITY, and then sue for the cost of the cameras.
m5james
Member
I don't know if I need updated cameras, I just asked the SC that on that chance that it was an option and/or needed to get FSD back again since I only had it for like a month. At this point it sounds like I need MCU2 and then the updates snowball will start rolling down the hill again.
To a point I feel bad giving Lynnwood a hard time since they've has been nothing but nice to me and I've always gotten a loaner, from getting the halfshafts TSB done to a little over a month for my LDU replaced. I've got 143k, we average nearly 30k miles a year and I've got a warranty until Mar '26 so I'm hoping to keep my good graces there on the chance/hope a NEW battery replacement will be done before it expires. Do the people at the SC have knowledge that you took Tesla to small claims?
No idea, but I agree the Lynnwood SC is pretty good. In one of my issues with Tesla, the GM there basically told me he disagreed with the Tesla policy, but he couldn't bend it, and I should sue if I was serious. Challenge Accepted.
You don't sue the Lynnwood SC, you sue Tesla the Delaware corporation, and you're suing for broad company policies. I don't think this impacts the local SC at all. They sure didn't send someone from the SC to my case even though it was down the street.
If Tesla starts denying valid warranty claims just because you sued them for denying valid warranty claims, that just sounds like a circle that a judge would not find entertaining
seenhear
Member
I appreciate all your feedback and insights. I might be pursuing this in a few months time, after our other car gets some needed body work done and I can spare putting the Tesla in the shop for a few days.Tesla started charging more for HW2.5 cars than HW3 cars on April 13th, 2021. Here's the wayback machine before April 13, 2021, and then after, where the price goes from $1500 for all cars to $1500/$2500.:
Infotainment Upgrade
Upgrade your infotainment system for a more advanced and smoother user experience.Infotainment Upgrade
Upgrade your infotainment system for a more advanced and smoother user experience.
The reason for the MCU1/HW3 situation is people that actually bought FSD and had gotten a "free" HW3 upgrade before the MCU1 situation. This is a hack Tesla is doing to say that if you paid for FSD, the upgrade is $1,500, but if you didn't pay for FSD, it's $2,500. I promise you that even if you have HW2.5 and you ask for the MCU2 upgrade, if you have FSD on the car, they won't charge you the $1000 extra, because if they did, you'd just go "give me my HW3 upgrade first for free, then do the MCU2."
All of this is exactly what you should bring to a judge next to Tesla's own page that says "All cars have all hardware needed for FSD CAPABILITY." How is the latter true if Tesla charges differently based on what HW the car was produced with?
I wonder if anyone out there is using FSD-beta software and functionality with an MCU1? I can't imagine it would work very well. If not, it seems to me that MCU2 is required for FSD, which again would mean it should be free if I want to subscribe to FSD for a month or two now and then.
The MCU doesn't do any of the FSD processing or logic, so there's not a real reason it wouldn't perform just fine with MCU1. The issue is that part of Tesla's FSD is a bunch of visualizations, which do need the MCU.
In the end the technical reasons don't matter though. If Tesla is not keeping the MCU1 cars up to date on software and features with the MCU2 cars, then you have a solid argument in court that the car did not have "all hardware needed for FSD capability." I really doubt Tesla will show up in a court and on the record say "Your honor, MCU1 absolutely has all the hardware needed for Tesla's FSD program, and any delays in providing the software for that platform are only temporary delays based on internal development priorities, but for sure it is coming." I assume any reasonable judge would then ask "by when?"
Similar threads
