Hypothetical: what FSD hardware would you put on a car?

[Mo City]

Four corner radars instead of just one front-facing radar. I am severely disappointed Tesla did not do this for AP2.

Two corner, rear-facing cameras instead of just the one. The rear camera on my Model 3 is regularly obscured by water when it rains (and long after it stops). Can someone tell me why this isn't a fatal flaw for autonomy?

 

[MrBadger]

Radio equipment needed to support V2I and V2V to allow the car to be more aware of the surrounding traffic infrastructure and other similarly equipped vehicles.

V2I would allow traffic junction optimisation and green waving meaning fewer stops at junctions and longer platoons of cars making it through the junction without stopping.

V2V would allow better road utilisation in the vicinity of other V2V cars, including high speed platoons in high density lanes and better merging.

Needs to be compatible with global standards being developed.

 

[diplomat33]

Four corner radars instead of just one front-facing radar. I am severely disappointed Tesla did not do this for AP2.

Two corner, rear-facing cameras instead of just the one. The rear camera on my Model 3 is regularly obscured by water when it rains (and long after it stops). Can someone tell me why this isn't a fatal flaw for autonomy?

Because the side repeater cameras also see behind the car. So they offer redundancy if the rear camera is blocked.

 

[electronblue]

Because the side repeater cameras also see behind the car. So they offer redundancy if the rear camera is blocked.

Not in a reversing parking scenario though for cross traffic when the sides are blocked by other cars.

 

[diplomat33]

Not in a reversing parking scenario though for cross traffic when the sides are blocked by other cars.

The repeater cameras have a range of 100 m whereas the rear camera only has a range of 50 m. So I am pretty sure if you reverse slowly past the blocking cars, the repeater cameras will be able to see any cross traffic in time.

 

[electronblue]

The repeater cameras have a range of 100 m whereas the rear camera only has a range of 50 m. So I am pretty sure if you reverse slowly past the blocking cars, the repeater cameras will be able to see any cross traffic in time.

How can they, if parked cars are blocking their view on both sides?

 

[diplomat33]

How can they, if parked cars are blocking their view on both sides?

If you pull out beyond the parked cars blocking the path maybe?

 

[electronblue]

If you pull out beyond the parked cars blocking the path maybe?

At which stage three quarters of your car is already in the way of the cross traffic?

 

[diplomat33]

At which stage three quarters of your car is already in the way of the cross traffic?

The fact is that it should be pretty rare to have to reverse out of a parking space with both sides blocked and raining so hard that the rear camera is so covered with water that the vision neural net does not work. Keep in mind that even with water on the rear camera, the vision neural net still works. So I don't think it would be an issue. But in that rare instance where you have to reverse AND cars are blocking your repeater cameras AND the rear camera does not work, then the driver can take over and do the maneuver manually.

 

[electronblue]

The fact is that it should be pretty rare to have to reverse out of a parking space with both sides blocked and raining so hard that the rear camera is so covered with water that the vision neural net does not work. Keep in mind that even with water on the rear camera, the vision neural net still works. So I don't think it would be an issue. But in that rare instance where you have to reverse AND cars are blocking your repeater cameras AND the rear camera does not work, then the driver can take over and do the maneuver manually.

The point is to illustrate the lack of redundancy. It is not rare at all that the side repeater cameras are blocked on a parking lot, they are so low down. The rear camera is the most likely camera to get blocked by water by far based on years of experience. This would leave it up to the ultrasonics that have low range and low speed for fast approaching cross-traffic.

And how can a driver take over if this is supposed to be a Level 5 capable suite?

Here is what the side repeater cameras see in a parking lot:

 

[diplomat33]

The point is to illustrate the lack of redundancy. It is not rare at all that the side repeater cameras are blocked on a parking lot, they are so low down. The rear camera is the most likely camera to get blocked by water by far based on years of experience. This would leave it up to the ultrasonics that have low range and low speed for fast approaching cross-traffic.

And how can a driver take over if this is supposed to be a Level 5 capable suite?

Here is what the side repeater cameras see in a parking lot:

I simply meant it is rare for all conditions to happen at the same (reversing AND blocked repeater cameras AND blocked rear camera). Even in your picture, the rear camera is fine so it would see cross traffic. And presumably, the car could wait a minute until that person moves out of the way of the repeater cameras.

But I do agree that there is a lack of redundancy in the FSD sensors. Personally, I wish Tesla had put more sensors on AP2, at a bare minimum, added a rear radar. I will admit to having a bit of FSD jealousy when I see what other cars have. But it is what it is. I still think our current AP2/3 cars will do good "fair weather FSD". But the current hardware may not handle all extreme cases and if true, may not do L5.

 

[electronblue]

@diplomat33

I agree it may be rare for all of those to happen at once, though it is not rare at all that the rear camera is the only visual sensor that sees cross traffic when reversing from a parking lot which means there is very little redundancy — the single sensor may still get the job done but there is little or no redundancy if it were to fail for any reason.

This is pretty much the Tesla story everywhere but straight ahead where they do have redundancy.

Talking of a hypothetical FSD sensor suite, redundancy in all directions would seem important in my view.

 

[diplomat33]

Of course, we don't know anything about the software capabilities but I do like the FSD hardware on Byton's K-Byte concept car. In addition to cameras and radar, it also has forward and rear LIDAR on the roof as well as retractable side LIDAR as seen in this picture. Looks like a stylish EV too.

 

[EVNow]

How can they, if parked cars are blocking their view on both sides?

How would you do it ?

I use rare cameras when reversing and they generally give better view than me trying to look around.

 

[diplomat33]

For comparison, the Lucid Air will have the following FSD hardware:
- 2 long range radar and 4 short range radar
- 3 front cameras (with different field of vision)
- 5 active surround cameras
- 2 long range LIDAR and 2 short range LIDAR
- 1 driver monitoring camera
- 2 EyeQ4 computers
https://electrek.co/2017/01/02/lucid-motors-autonomous-tech-all-electric-sedan-mobileye/

 

[electronblue]

How would you do it ?

I use rare cameras when reversing and they generally give better view than me trying to look around.

Well compared to the Tesla suite on Level 5 FSD (driverless), I have some things going for me:

1) My head is at a height where I can usually see better through the windows of adjacent cars than side repeater cameras that are low

2) I can move my head (including getting out and taking a look if need be)

3) I can clean the rear-view camera if it is blocked to continue taking advantage of it

The point was redundancy. A driverless car probably needs a bit different redundancy compared to a human.

Sure you can drive without redundancy... until you can’t.

 

[Gen3]

Definitely a way to clean the sensors automatically.

I’d like a foreword IR cam for better vision at night.

Definitely V2V and intersection communication.

A way to remotely take control to deal with corner cases.

 

[EVNow]

The point was redundancy. A driverless car probably needs a bit different redundancy compared to a human.

The point is you proceed with caution. Go out slowly - so either you see others or others see you.

For comparison, the Lucid Air will have the following FSD hardware:

If they ever make the cars.

 

[electronblue]

The point is you proceed with caution. Go out slowly - so either you see others or others see you.

Yes, you can certainly drive blindly and slowly and hope for the best, but that isn’t really redundancy.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Radio equipment needed to support V2I and V2V to allow the car to be more aware of the surrounding traffic infrastructure and other similarly equipped vehicles.

V2I would allow traffic junction optimisation and green waving meaning fewer stops at junctions and longer platoons of cars making it through the junction without stopping.

V2V would allow better road utilisation in the vicinity of other V2V cars, including high speed platoons in high density lanes and better merging.

Needs to be compatible with global standards being developed.

That's why I felt like a Software defined radio would work best. So it could be adapted in the future to new standards.

At least till there is an actual standard.