I have a problem of work with the European Space Agency........

[Auzie]

Of course I don't know the culture and inner working of ESA but I would absolutely assume that a space agency, made up of mostly engineers and scientists, which in this case is also a pan-European cooperative agency would be orders of magnitude better than any government or other political organ anywhere in the world when it comes to competence and independent thinking. I could be wrong though.

I would say however, as a general rule of thumb, that the most important information in situation like this can often be found by reading between the lines; that which is not said or mentioned, this is where the problem lies.

Raffy's posts do not mention what the actual problem is/was. After reading all the posts in this thread I still cannot understand why he was pushed out of the agency. Surely they must have given him some type of reason, either plainly or indirectly? Surely he must have his own thoughts about this? And if he doesn't have a clue as to why he was let go, or hasn't picked up on the reasons/signals given to him, perhaps that is the problem right there?

I also do not know what the exact problem is. My view is that only Raffy can work out his problem, no one can do it for him or tell him what his problem is.

If we start guessing here what the problem could be, in the face of cultural, political and language barrier, we are likely to be wrong. We are here to support Raffy in his difficult times. Kindness can be understood across all the barriers and is never misplaced.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

What you said might hold true in a civil environment, with civilized people. Unfortunately civility is a surprise rather than a norm in many places.

Many organisations have inbuilt feedback loops that reinforce the established order and mercilessly weed out anyone that does not serve or feed into that established order.

+ 1

In fact my Head in ESA always told me to learn to live in the jungle.

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We are here to support Raffy in his difficult times.

Thank you very much. :smile:

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I wrote exactly what was the actual problem. The Head of ESA Personnel who handled my situation said it was a problem of power, that of course was not of my concern. I am an engineer not a politician. Yes there are some engineers that are also politicians but it's not my case.

To this concern I could also say (from what I heard in ESA) that it could be there was a political crashing between two Departments of ESA. That's why I belonged to two Departments of ESA at the same time.

Don't want to be involved in politics. It's dangerous. Than I didn't even have the level to be involved in politics. I was A1 and in ESA you have got to be at least A4 to be involved in politics.

Maybe that the problem of power involves also other things that I don't know. But IMO main things is that problems of power have to be handled by political people not certainly by me.

 

[Johan]

The Head of ESA Personnel who handled my situation said it was a problem of power, that of course was not of my concern.

I would never ever accept such an explanation. Of course it is your concern: you lost your job over it!

 

[Raffy.Roma]

I would never ever accept such an explanation. Of course it is your concern: you lost your job over it!

Problems of power of my concern?

I am an engineer not a politician. It's like you asked to a waiter to act in a surgical operation. Surgical operations are of concern of doctors not waiters.

 

[Johan]

Problems of power of my concern?

I am an engineer not a politician. It's like you asked to a waiter to act in a surgical operation. Surgical operations are of concern of doctors not waiters.

OK. So you are told you are being let go from your work. You ask why. The answer you get is "it's a problem of power, it's not your concern". And you accept this answer? This is a non-answer. You are not a child being talk to by adults, about things that are beyond your comprehension, are you?

 

[Raffy.Roma]

OK. So you are told you are being let go from your work. You ask why. The answer you get is "it's a problem of power, it's not your concern". And you accept this answer? This is a non-answer. You are not a child being talk to by adults, about things that are beyond your comprehension, are you?

If it's a matter of power I am even afraid to know the details. I have been singled out in ESA just because I have been involved in a matter of power. Not nice believe me.
On the contrary my attitude is to get out of this nightmare of power and to start a new and normal life. Don't want to handle matters of power.

 

[Johan]

If it's a matter of power I am even afraid to know the details. I have been singled out in ESA just because I have been involved in a matter of power. Not nice believe me.
On the contrary my attitude is to get out of this nightmare of power and to start a new and normal life. Don't want to handle matters of power.

Ok good luck with that! I hope you get what you are hoping for and can move on to something better and more positive.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

Ok good luck with that! I hope you get what you are hoping for and can move on to something better and more positive.

Thank you for your wish Johan. You got exactly my dream.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

I have just been informed from ASI that the meeting with ESA will be held in ESA/ESRIN (Frascati-Roma) on the 8th of September. The representative of ESA will be the Headquarter Esa Head of Personnel that has already informed me (through ASI) that ESA is not available to give anything to me.

The situation now looks very bad.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

I have just been informed from ASI that the meeting with ESA will be held in ESA/ESRIN (Frascati-Roma) on the 8th of September. The representative of ESA will be the Headquarter Esa Head of Personnel that has already informed me (through ASI) that ESA is not available to give anything to me.

The situation now looks very bad.

But I think that if ESA decided to meet me in September it means that there is a chance for me to work out my situation otherwise ESA wouln't have given to me the meeting.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

Somebody has any ideas to convince ESA to make me get out of this nightmare and start a new life?

 

[bonnie]

Raffy - I think what some have been saying indirectly is that maybe counting on ESA to fix things might not be in your best interests, because you're putting your life on hold. If ESA were to disappear overnight, what would you do with your life?

Do that. And if by some miracle, things are fixed with ESA, then that means you have choices.

Good luck.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

Raffy - I think what some have been saying indirectly is that maybe counting on ESA to fix things might not be in your best interests, because you're putting your life on hold. If ESA were to disappear overnight, what would you do with your life?

Do that. And if by some miracle, things are fixed with ESA, then that means you have choices.

Good luck.

Thank you Bonnie. You understood exactly my situation. Actually I am putting my life on hold that's why I am so worried.
But I did't want to be involved in this matter of power. Hope that ESA will understand this and help me to restart a new life.

 

[Johan]

Thank you Bonnie. You understood exactly my situation. Actually I am putting my life on hold that's why I am so worried.
But I did't want to be involved in this matter of power. Hope that ESA will understand this and help me to restart a new life.

Why would they help you? You say they terminated your employment in a bad way. They haven't been responding to your requests. Now finally they say they will meet you in September, but are saying already (according to your post above) that "ESA is not available to give anything to me."

This means you can in no way hope or count on them to suddenly change their mind and help you. And what do you mean by "help" anyway? Do you want an economic settlement? Do you want your old job back? Do you want an apology?

The way I see it you either 1) let the whole thing go and move on with your life, in a positive direction or 2) make up your mind exactly as to what is is you want (a given amount of money? a written apology?) and then, with the help of a lawyer, present your case to them - and if they won't listen to the courts.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

@Johan

Actually I hope to get an amount of money allowing me to restart a new life. My life has bene destroyed because of what happened in ESA without me having any fault (as the Head of Personnel who handled my situation said). So I think that I deserve a good amount of money allowing me to restart a new life.

But I am too a little thing with respect to ESA and for this reason I hope that ESA will understand my reasons and find an agreement without going to court.

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@Johan

I see that you have good ideas on my situation. If it happened that you come to Italy in September you could come with me to the meeting with ESA. You would be the TMC representative standing close to me. :smile:

 

[Johan]

@Johan

Actually I hope to get an amount of money allowing me to restart a new life. My life has bene destroyed because of what happened in ESA without me having any fault (as the Head of Personnel who handled my situation said). So I think that I deserve a good amount of money allowing me to restart a new life.

But I am too a little thing with respect to ESA and for this reason I hope that ESA will understand my reasons and find an agreement without going to court.

Then this becomes a monetary negotiation. Come prepared, make a claim for a specific amount of money (not "a good amount of money"). This should be a higher amount than what you expect to get in the end. Be prepared to give a justification of how you came up with this amount (for example loss of income, loss of seniority, lost possibilites of career development, difficulties in finding new employment that has led to an economic loss etc). Then be prepared to negotiate as they will likely offer you a much lower amount and meet them somewhere halfway. Avoid court if you can, by if you threaten them with taking them to court be sure you are prepared to actually do it if it comes to that. Good luck!

I'd love to come to Italy some day, and visit, but if you should have anyone by your side it should be a lawyer

 

[Raffy.Roma]

Then this becomes a monetary negotiation. Come prepared, make a claim for a specific amount of money (not "a good amount of money"). This should be a higher amount than what you expect to get in the end. Be prepared to give a justification of how you came up with this amount (for example loss of income, loss of seniority, lost possibilites of career development, difficulties in finding new employment that has led to an economic loss etc). Then be prepared to negotiate as they will likely offer you a much lower amount and meet them somewhere halfway. Avoid court if you can, by if you threaten them with taking them to court be sure you are prepared to actually do it if it comes to that. Good luck!

I'd love to come to Italy some day, and visit, but if you should have anyone by your side it should be a lawyer

As I said very good and clear ideas. Thank you very much. I will consider your advices. And if I will manage to work out my situation I will invite you to Italy. :smile:

 

[AEdennis]

...be prepared to negotiate as they will likely offer you a much lower amount and meet them somewhere halfway. Avoid court if you can, by if you threaten them with taking them to court be sure you are prepared to actually do it if it comes to that. Good luck!

Raffy,

I agree with Johan. However, I also think it seems healthier to move on with your life.

that being said, kick some a**.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

Raffy,

I agree with Johan. However, I also think it seems healthier to move on with your life.

that being said, kick some a**.

Thank you Dennis. Very nice from you. :smile:

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I am getting ready the list of the damages that ESA made me together with my lawyer. Of course the agreement will be found at a lower price. Anyway ASI confirmed me that the official position of ESA is not to give anything to me. I am afraid that ESA wants to force me to accept a very low amount of money. Hope that I am wrong.

 

[redevries]

As a fellow European I can only advice you to get good legal council. From what I can gather from the original article, things are pretty messed up, and there is NO way that you can clear that up on your own. You've got to play the bureaucracy game, or you will have lost. It looks like they are trying to overwhelm you. In Europe employers have a lot more responsibilities towards their employees.
1. Collect all the evidence, in writing as much as possible
2. Don't accept any offers, and don't resign. If they don't want you to show up, make sure that they tell you to that you can stay at home, in writing
3. Get a good lawyer and document the case
4. Have the lawyer write them a letter stating all the points you don't agree with, and propose a large settlement
5. Take the lawyer with you at ANY meeting
5. Be prepared to go to court if needed.

Since this is going on for so long, and is causing you a lot of stress, this is a good time to bite your nails and get it fixed once and for all. Don't let them bully you into anything without legal counsil.

All the best

René