After the tropical storm we lost power for 3 days. Luckily we have friends who were so kind to let us come over to shower and relax a bit. But I wish our model 3 could be used like a powerwall to feed the house. Or at the least allow us to use our solar. Sigh. I am sure there are a lot of hurdles to do that. I’m sure there’s laws, engineering, and many other things. But just stating. I wish we could.
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I wish our Model 3 could be used like a powerwall
- Thread starter TheBatcave
- Start date
I have a neighbour who works for our local hydro company. He told me about two research projects they are working.
One is to have electric cars serve as household backup power, like you suggest.
The other is to have the option for electric cars to supply (sell) power back to the grid on days when the owners aren't driving. The power would be sold back at a day rate higher than the night charge rate.
There are likely battery life implications that would need to be overcome. Elon's million mile batteries might make this feasible.
One is to have electric cars serve as household backup power, like you suggest.
The other is to have the option for electric cars to supply (sell) power back to the grid on days when the owners aren't driving. The power would be sold back at a day rate higher than the night charge rate.
There are likely battery life implications that would need to be overcome. Elon's million mile batteries might make this feasible.
Of course people want this, and I truly believe it is likely to happen, but only for people who already have tesla powerwalls, with its automatic switching gateway that automatically switches grid power to battery storage, and protects the people who are actually working on the lines from being injured / killed because a line that was supposed to be de energized gets energized by someone plugging their car in and backfeeding to the grid.
I expect that at some point, those who have some battery storage onsite will be able to also use their car in a pinch to extend that battery storage.
Other than that, I dont see it happening, for a bunch of different reasons, the above is just one. Another is, the very real (VERY VERY real) situation where people who had "free unlimited supercharging" would expect to be able to drive to a supercharger, fill up, and then go home and power their home on "free electricity". As much as people go "gaga" over free unlimited supercharging now (which really in the scheme of things doesnt save people who can afford model s and x cars THAT much money), many would absolutely do this.
Another reason is, if somehow this worked like people want it to (simply plug in your car to power your home) there would be absolutely zero reason for tesla to continue to sell powerwalls, so there is a business aspect to it as well as the both life threatening issue of the lineman working on the lines, and the social issue of people trying to use their cars to power their home permanently (and it absolutely would happen)
So, yeah, my TL ; DR opinion on this is, V2G (vehicle to grid) will be coming at some point, but only for people who already have powerwall solutions in place (with the hardware, permits with the utilities, etc) to operate it safely.
I also predict that whenever that happens, and they require powerwalls to make it happen, people here are going to lose their $@%%$%$% complaining about how its "not fair" and "another tesla fail!!" and such, and ignore all the very real reasons why it shouldnt happen straight from vehicle to grid without some safety hardware inbetween.
(you need to add some powerwalls to your solar, and you wont have to deal with that specific issue again... or buy a generator)
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
What jjrandorin said up top plus...
If you have a solar system or something else to feed your storage.... you either have to never move your car (in which case why not just get a much cheaper powerwall) or your car would just be an additional part-time powerwall to the one you already have.
Anyway most folks wouldn't "really" want this with current-gen batteries only good for ~1500 cycles.... but if the next-gen ones really are good for like 3000-4000 it becomes a lot better option.
If you have a solar system or something else to feed your storage.... you either have to never move your car (in which case why not just get a much cheaper powerwall) or your car would just be an additional part-time powerwall to the one you already have.
Anyway most folks wouldn't "really" want this with current-gen batteries only good for ~1500 cycles.... but if the next-gen ones really are good for like 3000-4000 it becomes a lot better option.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Exactly
Once that is true, V2G and V2H are no-brainers in terms of social utility at scale
CHAdeMO actually supports this. I've seen Nissan demo it by powering a trade show booth via a Leaf and a box built by Nichicon. The Nichicon box had a CHAdeMO inlet and built in inverter for household voltage and power levels. Would be nice if it was supported via the Tesla CHAdeMO adapter...
TL ; DR version is, this change simply adds model S and X cars to have a specific feature interfacing with powerwalls that model 3's have had for a few firmware versions already.
Longer version follows:
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The change you are seeing there is to add Model s and x cars to something that is already possible with model 3s. The specific change is, there is a setting in the tesla account to set how much a car would drain your powerwalls, IF there is an outage. Thats the only time that setting comes into effect.
People with powerwalls and solar and tesla cars, run the risk (without this change on teslas end) to have the car trigger charging in the middle of the night or something, if its scheduled, even if there is a power outage. That would suck the powerwalls dry, and create a situation where the home had no power, and the owner might be asleep or away and not notice the car is sucking all the powerwall power.
The change (again, available on model 3s a few firmware versions ago), puts a setting to tell the car only to suck the powerwalls down to a specified percentage, in an outage.
Its nice that they are finally making that setting available to model s and x vehicles as well. We are not sure what exactly the car / powerwalls etc are looking for in this situation.
I have solar, and powerwalls, and a model 3, so am fairly familiar with this set of products. In my own setup at home, I excluded my tesla wall connector specifically to avoid the scenario above with the car draining the powerwalls. Note that, even if the HPWC is setup to not drain the powerwalls in an outage, I can still use powerwall power to charge my car if I want to, as long as I have grid. Sort of going off the rails here explaining this...
OK its early but I will give this a go. I would rather use my Leaf for
the house. Very cheap and a good sized battery for house use.
I would not use my model 3 for this. The problem is really simple, except
for power outages. You need an island inverter that shuts off the outside line
when the power goes out. You can also use a fast switch for cases that the house
and solar cannot supply enough power. I think there are a few solutions out there
but at 5-6k does not make sense. It will happen, just at a very slow rate.
OK I know what you all are thinking, Leaf on blocks in everybody's front yard.
the house. Very cheap and a good sized battery for house use.
I would not use my model 3 for this. The problem is really simple, except
for power outages. You need an island inverter that shuts off the outside line
when the power goes out. You can also use a fast switch for cases that the house
and solar cannot supply enough power. I think there are a few solutions out there
but at 5-6k does not make sense. It will happen, just at a very slow rate.
OK I know what you all are thinking, Leaf on blocks in everybody's front yard.
Stellavator
Member
I have a transfer switch installed to connect a generator directly to my household panel. This protects the line from being charged from my generator. It would be very nice to have a solution available that would allow me to simply plug my M3 into that transfer switch, instead of the generator. I understand that M3s have the internal equipment necessary to send the power the opposite direction, but in what form and voltage? What would be needed between the car and the transfer switch?
Maybe you went to Tokyo Motor Show? There were numerous demos of this in 2019 there... Nissan did something like this at a Cupertino EVent and also at CES at their booth at least once.
That said, it's more than a demo, this has been going on in Japan for years.
I've posted about it at Level 3 at home - Page 7 - My Nissan Leaf Forum w/about 7000 systems by around Sept 2017. http://www.evs28.org/event_file/event_file/1/pfile/EVS28_0224_EconomicPotential-V2H-Japan.pdf is 404 now but Wayback Machine has a copy mentioning that 2,400 V2H systems were installed in Japan as of Dec 2014.
There are these, for example: NICHICON CORPORATION | Topics | Nissan and Nichicon to Launch the "LEAF to Home" Power Supply System With "EV Power Station", Nichicon Power Mover, Nichicon (6kW) and Nichicon EV Power Station with more at V2X – Chademo Association.
Cupertino Drive Electric day a few years ago. I've got several photos of the Nichicon box.
Actually I have seen conflicting reports. I saw some article where some engineering type said that they thought the model 3 had the hardware for bidirectional energy flow, and I saw another one from another engineering type that says "person X is wrong, it doesnt currently have the hardware for bidirectional usage".
On the "I want the car to plug into the generator" Idea, its a decent Idea for sure, but tesla already has some challenges for people who want to integrate powerwalls into an electrical system with generators already present (some people want to do this). The generator can not be used to provide power to the powerwalls for example. For the few people who have both a generator and powerwalls, I believe it works with the powerwall (and or solar) providing all the power it can until it runs out (if it does), then and only then the generator activating.
The generator and powerwall do not "work together" in any form, just double backup, with the powerwall and or its solar connection providing home power till the powerwall cant do it any longer.
I dont see tesla working too much on generator integration either, so I doubt that integration would get better.
I believe at some point there will likely be some sort of aftermarket market for used tesla battery packs, even with 50% charge left in them, being converted to home energy storage by someone and sold. I dont know when, but someone will do it. The question is, would such a thing last the additional 10-15 years that someone attaching such a thing to their home would expect it to last.
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Knightshade
Well-Known Member
It doesn't have it.
The original guy after seeing the 2nd guys analysis admitted he wasn't checking that closely.
By the time V2G is back feeding into the California grid, I predict batteries to be so cheap, nobody in their right mind who buys a Powerwall system would think twice about buying enough batteries to go with it. PV and batteries will be common on new homes probably, maybe even code in California. PV hit that bar this year, and its only going to benefit the planet.
Once Million mile batteries are in every car and every Powerwall this will make a lot more sense to actually implement. Still, permits and a Backup gateway will be needed to make this dream a reality, so basically you need a Powerwall system.
As far as the problem with FUSC I think a software fix is pretty easy here. Simply disallow discharging FUSC energy into a homes backup gateway, unless there was a storm or natural disaster.
As far as whether the hardware will do it, I really don't know, but hardware often isn't difficult to swap out.
Once Million mile batteries are in every car and every Powerwall this will make a lot more sense to actually implement. Still, permits and a Backup gateway will be needed to make this dream a reality, so basically you need a Powerwall system.
As far as the problem with FUSC I think a software fix is pretty easy here. Simply disallow discharging FUSC energy into a homes backup gateway, unless there was a storm or natural disaster.
As far as whether the hardware will do it, I really don't know, but hardware often isn't difficult to swap out.
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The Model 3 already has the capability to reverse the flow of electricity from the car. I imagine you would need a Tesla gateway (to manage the power from the car, panels, and grid), the Tesla wall charger, and new software in the car to enable the feature.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
dhrivnak
Active Member
Unfortunately in large areas of the country Tesla will not sell PowerWalls. My order has been pending for 8 months and their Only answer is we do not service your area. I also work part time for a solar installer in the area and we have 5 applications submitted to sell and service PowerWalls over the last 10 months and we can not even get a call back. Very frustrating
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