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Introduction & Variety of Model S Questions

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I purchased a Tesla S85 in March 2013 and it now has over 65,000 miles. We now drive whenever possible and save flying for things like crossing oceans or quick trips where driving simply isn't an option. The car was about twice what I was planning to pay for a new car, but there was simply nothing else with similar capabilities and carpool lane access in California so we stretched the budget a bit and haven't regretted it once. It's kind of sad that nearly three years later there still isn't anything else with similar capabilities from another company on the market.

My wife was really impressed with the Model S whenever she drove it so she decided to sell her 2009 Acura TL and lease a BMW i3 as an urban commuter car in September 2014 since a second Model S wasn't in the budget. She still likes the i3 for commuting to and parking in San Francisco, but the limited range has caused problems on multiple occasions and the car is going back to the dealer when the lease is up.


The Acura did have a few features that the Model S doesn't have such as a more bullet proof nav system and driver profiles linked to the key fobs. But the Tesla nav system improves with every free over the air software update and the Acura dealer wanted a fair amount of money just to update the maps on the nav system during a service visit. The Model S does take two taps of the touchscreen to switch driver profiles, but this is a pretty minor inconvenience in the grand scheme of things. The i3 doesn't have power seats to save weight and they didn't bother synching the power mirrors to the key fobs or establish driver profiles so we have to manually adjust the seat and the mirrors every time we switch drivers. That is much more of a hassle than tapping the touch screen twice.


If you want a pure EV that is capable of road trips, you really only have once choose at the moment. If you don't really need features like autopilot*, parking sensors, folding mirrors, next gen seats, or all wheel drive that weren't available on early cars, I'd actually suggest getting an early 85 kWh Model S from a private party with 50-60K miles if it has the extended warranty. All the parts that are likely to break will probably already have been replaced under warranty and you'll still have most of the 8 year unlimited mile power train warranty left. You will need to make sure the original door handles, drive unit, 12V battery, and HV battery contactor have been replaced because those parts on early cars tend to fail pretty often. And the options on early cars changed often so you'll need to make sure the car has memory seats, nav, or anything else that is important to you. But if you play your cards right, you could get a car that meets your needs for far less than the cost of a new one. My car would probably be perfect for you- but you can't have it since I plan to drive it at least until the 8 year unlimited mile drivetrain warranty is up.

*you said autopilot was a priority, but until it advances to the point where you can go to sleep and let the car do all the work, it seems more like a cool bit of technology than an essential feature. Full autonomy will be a huge deal, but I certainly have no strong desire to trade my car in for a current auto pilot equipped car.
 
I don't think there is anything even remotely close to a Model S on the horizon. Those other EVs don't even compare. If you are concerned about cost though, wait until the Model 3 unveiling and see if buying another used Ford might be the best option to hold you over until it gets here.
 
First of all, you are posing this question on a Tesla board. The vast majority of responses are going to recommend the Tesla. With that said, I'm not sure that I understand the comparison. You are looking at some basic, but nice, BEV's vs a $100K luxury car that just happens to be able to travel over 200 miles. If you can afford the Tesla, there really is no comparison. I have owned over 20 cars and the Tesla is one of the best. By the way, the Tesla does have memory seats, just not linked to the FOB. I just picked up a CPO P85 and could not be happier.

I suspect that's the point!! :) The OP is not looking for an unbiased opinion. They are looking for us to provide suitable rationale to be used in convincing themselves and then subsequently a significant other! The decision was 80% before they showed up here. I see that you've all done your job, to provide good solid (cough!) reasoning. And now the test drive is all that's required to close the deal! :)
 
*you said autopilot was a priority, but until it advances to the point where you can go to sleep and let the car do all the work, it seems more like a cool bit of technology than an essential feature. Full autonomy will be a huge deal, but I certainly have no strong desire to trade my car in for a current auto pilot equipped car.
To me, autopilot is what made me really start considering going this route. It is cool technology, but I think it's also very valuable for road trips.
I don't think there is anything even remotely close to a Model S on the horizon. Those other EVs don't even compare. If you are concerned about cost though, wait until the Model 3 unveiling and see if buying another used Ford might be the best option to hold you over until it gets here.
I've considered this, but with how often we drive with 4-5 adults in the car, the Focus has to go. I don't want to have to drive our Fusion Energi & use gas in order to fit people in the car. A gen2 Volt would have nearly enough EV range to replace the Focus EV, but it isn't really any bigger & it still has an ICE. We usually do 50-70 miles of driving at least one day a week, most of it with people in the back seat. It's just not kind to force our friends to squeeze into the back seat of the Focus for any longer than we have to...
I suspect that's the point!! :) The OP is not looking for an unbiased opinion. They are looking for us to provide suitable rationale to be used in convincing themselves and then subsequently a significant other! The decision was 80% before they showed up here. I see that you've all done your job, to provide good solid (cough!) reasoning. And now the test drive is all that's required to close the deal! :)
Exactly!
 
Does anyone know of a thread that breaks down the functionality of the Tesla app? I've searched & I'm not finding a lot of info. We make extensive use of the MyFord Mobile app to connect to our cars now to precondition & adjust charging settings, etc. A google search returned images of the smartphone app screens, I think I was able to find pictures for all of the screens. What about web browser access? Are there some controls that are only available through the web browser, and not in the cell phone app?

Also, relating to the app, what happens when you have a loaner Model S while yours in being serviced? Can you connect the loaner Model S to your cell phone app?
 
...Also, relating to the app, what happens when you have a loaner Model S while yours in being serviced? Can you connect the loaner Model S to your cell phone app?
From a security perspective I'm glad that the app is tied to your VIN registered on your My Tesla Account. You can use the Tesla App while YOUR MS is being serviced to see it being moved around the service bays, if it's taken on a test drive, being charged, doors, pano, trunks open/closed, and software updates being applied... But honesty, an owner should be careful, to avoid taking some action that may interfere with what Tesla's Service techs may be doing -- like locking/unlocking, starting, turning on aircon or changing temps, opening/closing the pano, changing the charge limit, etc when the vehicle is not in your possession. I have not heard of, nor would I expect or see a significant benefit to, Tesla going to the extra trouble of temporarialrly enabling a loaner to someone's MY Tesla account, then having to remove that upon turn-in, etc...
 
Does anyone know of a thread that breaks down the functionality of the Tesla app? I've searched & I'm not finding a lot of info. We make extensive use of the MyFord Mobile app to connect to our cars now to precondition & adjust charging settings, etc. A google search returned images of the smartphone app screens, I think I was able to find pictures for all of the screens. What about web browser access? Are there some controls that are only available through the web browser, and not in the cell phone app?

Also, relating to the app, what happens when you have a loaner Model S while yours in being serviced? Can you connect the loaner Model S to your cell phone app?

The iPhone app lets you do things like lock and unlock the doors, honk the horn, flash the lights, open the charge port, start and stop charging, set the state of charge for charging to stop, turn on the climate control, read the interior temp of the car, adjust the climate control temp, see where the car is on the map, see when the doors, frunk, and trunk are open, see how fast the car is driving, set notifications, start the car if you have that enabled, and a few other odds and ends. There is also a third party app that can report a few additional types of info such as current flowing into the battery and odometer reading: Remote S: Tesla app for Apple Watch, iPhone, iPad, and iPod Touch

You have to be in the car itself to control most of the other things (charging amperage, disable remote access by the app, change what units things are reported in, regen settings, steering settings, etc.)

I find the app quite useful when the car is in for service because you can see what compartments are open on the car, what it is doing, etc. When I see the car at the local auto detailer, I know it is just about done. This is especially useful if they are bringing the car to you on a trailer- you can see exactly where the car is in real time and go out to meet them. Tesla service disabled app access at least once, but I think that was several years ago and they didn't do that on more recent trips. The Tesla smartphone app completely blows the smartphone app for our BMW i3 out of the water. The i3 app won't report any data while the car is moving and the data it does report when the car is stopped isn't updated all that often. If my wife is coming to meet me for lunch, the i3 app is basically worthless and I have to wait for her to text me to let me know she has arrived.
 
While you specifically ask about the Tesla App on your mobile phone, you may also wish to be aware that the API used by the phone App has been reverse engineered and been implemented in a variety of third party applications. None of these are officially approved by Tesla, but at least so far they are tacitly accepted, as Tesla has not taken active steps to block the apps, other than throttling the load on Tesla's servers. They require the same log in credentials as the phone App, so there is no security exposure (beyond trusting your credentials to the third party application). That is, the apps do not imply a security vulnerability in Tesla's implementation.

I use VisibleTesla (there is a forum thread), which is a Java application running locally on your PC (Windows, Apple, or Linux). In addition to providing all the control functions provided by the phone App, it logs and displays extensive information, both while charging and driving, and it allows scheduled control of some operations that are only available as immediate operations from the phone App (notably charging, although I have as yet never needed this). I use VisibleTesla for the detailed information that it displays and logs.

If this is of interest, you might also ask what third party applications others find useful.
 
From a security perspective I'm glad that the app is tied to your VIN registered on your My Tesla Account. You can use the Tesla App while YOUR MS is being serviced to see it being moved around the service bays, if it's taken on a test drive, being charged, doors, pano, trunks open/closed, and software updates being applied... But honesty, an owner should be careful, to avoid taking some action that may interfere with what Tesla's Service techs may be doing -- like locking/unlocking, starting, turning on aircon or changing temps, opening/closing the pano, changing the charge limit, etc when the vehicle is not in your possession. I have not heard of, nor would I expect or see a significant benefit to, Tesla going to the extra trouble of temporarily enabling a loaner to someone's MY Tesla account, then having to remove that upon turn-in, etc...
So when you have a loaner you can't preheat or anything? Preheating is what I'd be most concerned with.
The iPhone app lets you do things like lock and unlock the doors, honk the horn, flash the lights, open the charge port, start and stop charging, set the state of charge for charging to stop, turn on the climate control, read the interior temp of the car, adjust the climate control temp, see where the car is on the map, see when the doors, frunk, and trunk are open, see how fast the car is driving, set notifications, start the car if you have that enabled, and a few other odds and ends. There is also a third party app that can report a few additional types of info such as current flowing into the battery and odometer reading: Remote S: Tesla app for Apple Watch, iPhone, iPad, and iPod Touch

You have to be in the car itself to control most of the other things (charging amperage, disable remote access by the app, change what units things are reported in, regen settings, steering settings, etc.)

I find the app quite useful when the car is in for service because you can see what compartments are open on the car, what it is doing, etc. When I see the car at the local auto detailer, I know it is just about done. This is especially useful if they are bringing the car to you on a trailer- you can see exactly where the car is in real time and go out to meet them. Tesla service disabled app access at least once, but I think that was several years ago and they didn't do that on more recent trips. The Tesla smartphone app completely blows the smartphone app for our BMW i3 out of the water. The i3 app won't report any data while the car is moving and the data it does report when the car is stopped isn't updated all that often. If my wife is coming to meet me for lunch, the i3 app is basically worthless and I have to wait for her to text me to let me know she has arrived.
Great info, thanks! That would be a nice improvement over what we can do now. The only thing it would lack would be trip tracking, but I understand that some of that data can be obtained through Visible Tesla. I have read some posts about that, but that thread is now 215 pages & I don't quite have the time to read all those pages...
While you specifically ask about the Tesla App on your mobile phone, you may also wish to be aware that the API used by the phone App has been reverse engineered and been implemented in a variety of third party applications. None of these are officially approved by Tesla, but at least so far they are tacitly accepted, as Tesla has not taken active steps to block the apps, other than throttling the load on Tesla's servers. They require the same log in credentials as the phone App, so there is no security exposure (beyond trusting your credentials to the third party application). That is, the apps do not imply a security vulnerability in Tesla's implementation.

I use VisibleTesla (there is a forum thread), which is a Java application running locally on your PC (Windows, Apple, or Linux). In addition to providing all the control functions provided by the phone App, it logs and displays extensive information, both while charging and driving, and it allows scheduled control of some operations that are only available as immediate operations from the phone App (notably charging, although I have as yet never needed this). I use VisibleTesla for the detailed information that it displays and logs.

If this is of interest, you might also ask what third party applications others find useful.
Thanks! I like your question suggestion. Besides Remote S & Visible Tesla, are there other 3rd party apps that owners find useful?

Another question: how does the Tesla charging configuration work? I know that you can set a certain max SOC to charge to, but how do you tell the car when to start? Can you tell it to start at a specific hour? Or do you tell it to finish at a specific hour & it starts when it needs to so that it's done by that time? In the Fords we can set charging to start at a specific hour. Our cars begin charging at 3:00 am currently. This balances our desire to take advantage of the periods of low demand overnight (we don't have TOU rates, we just want to charge during cleaner generation periods) and to minimize the time that the car spends fully charged before morning departure.
 
Questions for MN Tesla owners (I guess I can post this in the specific Midwest section too if I don't get much feedback here):
  1. How much does your annual registration cost? It would be useful to know your Model S year, trim level & how much the state is gouging you for... I've tried searching in the online tool the state provides for this purpose, but it says "no records found" when I input the first 10 digits of a VIN from Teslas for sale online.
  2. Who has good insurance rates on the Model S in MN? I know that our insurance is very zip code specific, I saved hundreds of dollars per year when moving zip codes 5 years ago. I know that there are also a ton of factors that go into insurance price, but I'm just curious for MN owners how getting a Tesla impacted your insurance cost.
 
Regarding Tesla Charging. From the interface in the car, in addition to the desired SOC, you can set the start time and the charge current (up to the maximum supported by the connection). A nice feature is that these settings are location aware and remembered, so you don't mess up your settings for charging at home when you charge on the road, and if you frequently charge at other locations (like work), those are also remembered. I am not aware of any limit on the number of locations remembered. From the phone App you can only set SOC and manually start / stop charging.

The car also remembers all locations where you have charged (in addition to superchargers) and these are included when monitoring that you are within range of a place to charge before you run the battery dry. On the downside, the car is not automatically aware of ChargePoint or PlugShare locations until you have used them at least once. (Although you can use the integrated web browser to search these sites when needed.)
 
No info on MN registration. I am in WI. Insurance will likely be similar. I am at $804 per year. My Volt was about $600 per year. So that's not insignificant but not enough to sway a decision on a car in my world. Progressive seems to be the most common carrier for Teslas in this area. Call your authorized body shop and get recommendations from them which insurers are easy vs hard to deal with on the claim side.

The big insurance companies like Allstate, State Farm, Nationwide... Don't be surprised or concerned if they throw out rates lime $2,600/yr. all they are saying is "we don't want to carry Teslas on our books". Several companies do want to. Just have to shop and find the right carrier.
 
However, I will have to say my biggest concern is something Tesla still hasn't addressed. It's especially of concern for people like us who purchase used Model S cars. It's the reliability and Tesla's stance on service. I am really worried about the drive unit reliability, especially on my Wife's car which is an earlier 2013 model. Not only is it a used car, but it's a salvage repair so has no warranty. Not only is that bad enough but Tesla refuses to:
  • Sell parts to me for the repaired car, any parts, even something such as coolant. (antifreeze for the powertrain)
  • Do any work on the repaired car whatsoever. (So I'm on my own when the DU fails!)
  • Provide me with access to a service manual.
  • Allow independent body and service shops to work on their cars. (they are intentionally creating an effective monopoly for some unknown reason)
Now of course the first 2 points are only because my Wife's car is a salvage repair. But I still can't even get a service manual, and it's so bad Tesla's lawyers aggressively will go after people trying to share service information with me. It's even so bad that posting a small part of a wiring diagram here results an a takedown notice to the board admin. I've always worked on my own cars including general maintenance and I'm a highly qualified engineer who has even rebuilt cars from the ground up. I know, this is a pretty far away concern for most people who would never concern themselves with their own maintenance, but in my opinion it greatly affects the long-term ownership proposition. One thing you might not have fully evaluated in your calculations is cost to insure. Right now some insurers price the Model S extremely high to insure, whereas some others are still surprisingly low-cost. (but this is not going to last!) I've had to change insurers once already. The Model S is an expensive car, so from that metric alone, it's going to cost more, especially for comprehensive coverage. But because of Tesla's service policies and them creating an effective monopoly on accident repair, a collision is going to be very costly. This is driving up insurance costs, which will eventually greatly affect the depreciation. Cars get in accidents that are easily repairable, but the stupid high estimates from the "Tesla Authorized" body stops cause the insurance company to write off the car, which ends up at auction and Tesla will never touch it again or even sell parts for it. Since the people who like to buy cars from insurance auctions and fix them up can't even buy parts for them, that's causing the auction prices to fall. This means the cost to insurance companies for these cars is going way up! As an aside I was able to get a cheap car for my Wife, but it comes with the possibility that the drive unit could die any day and I'm stuck with a 2.5 ton block of aluminum, plastic and over 7000 laptop cells! At least I'll have enough rechargeable batteries to last me for a long time! =)

I think the key in your message here is "Don't buy a Salvage Titled Car", not just a used car. Big difference. Tesla does cover any used car with the normal warranties no matter if you are original or the 5th owner. I bought mine used and had a drive train replaced, no problem at all. While I'm very sorry for your situation, and you bring up good points, that is a separate issue from anybody buying a normal used car with a clean title.
 
When I started looking to get a new car, Ford was first on my list. The rest of my family switched from GM to Ford cars over the last decade and there is a Ford dealer very close to home (closer than any other dealer). I have very long legs and if the leg room isn't right, I'm in agony on a long trip, so I'm forced into a larger car or a truck-like vehicle from the get-go. I'm not a fan of SUVs, so I was looking at larger cars. I had checked out the Fusion and I could just barely get the seat adjusted to be comfortable, it was right on the cutting edge.

In any case, I also wanted a car that had gas mileage better than my 1992 Buick, had close to as much cargo space, was good for long road trips (we need to go to California from the Portland area at least once a year), and had acceleration at least as good as my Buick (which is only 8s 0-60). I was shocked that larger ICE cars didn't really have better gas mileage than my Buick and the hybrids all had horrible acceleration and most took up cargo space with the batteries. On a lark I looked at Tesla and the Model S fit every criteria, except it cost more than twice what I was looking at spending. Going over my budget and plans, I determined I would have to save longer, but I could afford it. Like you, it's something I can afford but it's not easy.

Since falling for the Model S I have done some reading on other pure electrics and the Model S is really the only one out there with the performance and the cargo space, and of course anyone who knows anything about electrics knows about Tesla being the range leader by a big margin. If you can afford it, I would say go with the Tesla. I don't own one yet, but from all my analysis it's the best of all hybrids and electrics out there.

BTW, I remember reading an article several months back that the resale value for all BEVs is much lower than typical for ICE or even hybrids. The article speculated that people bought new Leafs and other BEVs over used to get the tax break, so the used ones languished. I just looked up the Kelly Blue Book value for a 2013 Leaf and it was $13K-$17K. If you went with the Model S, you said you would have to sell both Fords, but maybe in a year or so you could manage to buy something like a used Leaf as a second car? I expect with the longer range Leaf coming out the used prices will drop even further.
 
Regarding Tesla Charging. From the interface in the car, in addition to the desired SOC, you can set the start time and the charge current (up to the maximum supported by the connection). A nice feature is that these settings are location aware and remembered, so you don't mess up your settings for charging at home when you charge on the road, and if you frequently charge at other locations (like work), those are also remembered. I am not aware of any limit on the number of locations remembered. From the phone App you can only set SOC and manually start / stop charging.

The car also remembers all locations where you have charged (in addition to superchargers) and these are included when monitoring that you are within range of a place to charge before you run the battery dry. On the downside, the car is not automatically aware of ChargePoint or PlugShare locations until you have used them at least once. (Although you can use the integrated web browser to search these sites when needed.)
Very cool info about the location based charging feature. This is a feature I really like in our Fords. We have done lots of charging away from home in our Fusion Energi, particularly on road trips. Ford caps the list of locations that I can save & name at 20. The system will remember the address of every location where the car has charged, but only 20 can be named & only 12 can be set up with a delayed charging profile.
On a lark I looked at Tesla and the Model S fit every criteria, except it cost more than twice what I was looking at spending. Going over my budget and plans, I determined I would have to save longer, but I could afford it. Like you, it's something I can afford but it's not easy.

Since falling for the Model S I have done some reading on other pure electrics and the Model S is really the only one out there with the performance and the cargo space, and of course anyone who knows anything about electrics knows about Tesla being the range leader by a big margin. If you can afford it, I would say go with the Tesla. I don't own one yet, but from all my analysis it's the best of all hybrids and electrics out there.

BTW, I remember reading an article several months back that the resale value for all BEVs is much lower than typical for ICE or even hybrids. The article speculated that people bought new Leafs and other BEVs over used to get the tax break, so the used ones languished. I just looked up the Kelly Blue Book value for a 2013 Leaf and it was $13K-$17K. If you went with the Model S, you said you would have to sell both Fords, but maybe in a year or so you could manage to buy something like a used Leaf as a second car? I expect with the longer range Leaf coming out the used prices will drop even further.
We have considered that. We have also considered buying a cheaper, used EV when the Focus Electric lease ends to have along with our Fusion Energi. The problem there is that I don't consider the Leaf to be a viable option because of the features it lacks & its poor crash test scores. One of the things that has most attracted me to the Model S is its safety performance.
 
Any MN owners who can share what our registration cost is for the Model S?

Also, when you remotely turn on the HVAC in the Model S, do any lights come on? Our Focus Electric turns on the park lights when you remote start it for HVAC. This causes lots of ppl to tell us that our lights are on...
 
No lights when you remotely turn on HVAC, but it can be noisy depending on the temperature differential. I do have people tell me I've left my lights on when I get out of my car; I think the auto-shut-off delay is a bit longer than some other cars. But of course there's no worry about the lights draining the battery - in fact I've used the car to help light an unlit field for my daughter's soccer practice. :)
 
Dude, just test drive a Model S and you will throw all of this out of the window and wonder why you spent so much time analyzing :) I was 99% set on a Porsche Panamera before I happen to stop into a Tesla Gallery while shopping at the mall. After 1 test drive I was hooked!

I realize this is mainly a complicated financial decision that includes convincing the 'Boss' to purchase one, but just thought I would share my story, good luck!
 
Dude, just test drive a Model S and you will throw all of this out of the window and wonder why you spent so much time analyzing :) I was 99% set on a Porsche Panamera before I happen to stop into a Tesla Gallery while shopping at the mall. After 1 test drive I was hooked!

I realize this is mainly a complicated financial decision that includes convincing the 'Boss' to purchase one, but just thought I would share my story, good luck!

I agree.
It is a financial decision first but as soon as I took the test drive it was a completely emotional "decision".
 
In my opinion, it has be the buyer's decision to establish the value of an incremental difference in features, performance, or other qualities between one option and another. A more formal way to state this: Only the person making a decision can set the relative weight (importance) of a factor in the decision. As an example, one person may place great importance on the ability to carry 5 adults in comfort, whereas another may not place much value on that. One person may place great importance on how quiet a car is, another may not care so much. This applies to all the decision criteria: range, comfort, level of luxury, audio quality, and on and on.
So, really, only you (the OP) can decide what qualities or criteria apply in your decision, and what relative importance to place on these when making your evaluation.

It is also my opinion that, try as we might, most people will not make a decision on a car in a totally objective way. It is well. Known that people, especially men, have a very emotional connection to their vehicles (cars and trucks). In my own case, I drove Mercedes Benzes for many years before I got my Model S. Even though there might be objective advantages to a Benz, I would not say that the reason to have purchased them repeatedly over the years was totally rational -- there was definitely an emotional aspect to the choice.

So, you really have to do your own analysis. Other people can provide factual input, but only you can weigh all the inputs and make a choice.

Good luck!