Israel/Hamas conflict

[aubreymcfato]

It seems to me that one of the ongoing debates these days is whether it's more hateful to commit violence with one's own hands, in a handcrafted manner, demonstrating true hatred to overcome the natural inhibitions against violence that most people have, or whether it's more hateful to use violence through a highly specialized technological stack (communication, legal, rhetorical) carefully cultivated over decades and billions of dollars, resulting in approximately ten times the deaths and injuries of the first method.
For me, it's undeniable that committing atrocities with one's own hands is more emotionally challenging and thus morally more repugnant. Similarly, I have no doubt that the destruction of civilian buildings through a button pressed in a drone command center is no less serious, although for different reasons. It may evoke less disgust, but it causes more pain, if only because it involves ten times as many people. Manual violence is additive, while technological violence is multiplicative. The worst event in recorded history occurred in the last century by those who had carefully studied the process of technologizing violence, even in its mechanisms of disresponsibilization. Technology enables this as well, democratizing genocides and expanding the base of those who can carry out such horrible acts.
These may sound like theoretical discussions, but it's the horrific reality of these terrible times.
We should never condone the first, but surely we shouldn't condone the latter.

 

[wdolson]

This is in my view where much of the problem for Israel lies.

Hamas is a political, and terrorist organisation, that will be impossible to fully destroy, as at any time, anyone can become a member of Hamas and adopt their methodology.

We saw this with the absurd USA "war on terror" after 9/11. There, with also good intentions, you had an impossible military objective where the enemy was a way of thinking, and we all saw the outcome - but it took years for the politicians to effectively admit defeat and to withdraw their forces.

Same is possibly true with Hamas today, and whilst there may be some military intelligence to the targets of Israel's strikes in Gaza, they are clearly causing much innocent death also, which will likely only strengthen Hamas's power and increase their membership, not only in Gaza, but in the West Bank and surrounding states too, even if not joining Hamas directly, but other radical groups adopting the same methodology/strategy, against an increasingly demonstrable common enemy.

Unfortunately, I feel it is quite likely we will see increased terrorist activity in the west as an outcome too, particularly so if we begin active military operations alongside Israel.

Even if Israel is able to eventually kill Hamas current leadership, someone else will then take over. Whether it is the same Hamas, or a different Hamas with a different name, it is ultimately an impossible battle with impossible goals.

I don't have any answers here, but it seems to me Israel need a clear military objective, need to legitimately avoid civilian deaths (saying we we warned you is not sufficient), a way of avoiding spread of violence outside of their borders and a way to stop any strengthening of Hamas and their methodology.

I would argue that revenge, as attractive as it may seem in the direct aftermath of the events at the weekend, is not ultimately in Israel's interest.

Yup, the problem with any kind of organization like an insurgency or terrorist group (militarily they are very similar), the harder you go after the organization opposing you, the more recruits join the organization. That's why insurgencies are almost impossible to put down. Post WW II history is full of developed world armies who lost insurgencies. You can kill today's insurgent fighters and you can even kill the leadership, but the organization keeps recruiting angry people who are ticked off at how the last generation of fighters were killed.

Though terrorist activity outside a local region is fairly rare. Al Qaeda was unusual in that regard. The norm is more like Isis or the Taliban. They were very dangerous opponents in their home territory, but get much outside of it and their ability to operate drops off considerably. The 9/11 attacks used some of the most western familiar fighters in Al Qaeda and even at that they raised a lot of flags when they were doing pilot training. After 9/11 Al Qaeda was able to recruit some immigrants in the west into the cause or sneak a few operatives into the west to pull off things like the London bombings, or the bombing in Spain and the couple who went postal in San Bernadino, California were US immigrants inspired by Middle Eastern terrorists.

There doesn't seem to be much support for Hamas among those who might act out violently in the west. I'm not too concerned about terrorism from that angle. The last Palestinian foreign terrorism I can think of was at the 1972 Olympics, though I may have forgotten something.

Violence against Palestinians living in the west could become a problem as westerners blame people living in their neighborhoods for what Hamas did. We saw a fair bit of that kind of violence on Chinese people during the pandemic, especially in the US.

 

[indysurfer]

It seems to me that one of the ongoing debates these days is whether it's more hateful to commit violence with one's own hands, in a handcrafted manner, demonstrating true hatred to overcome the natural inhibitions against violence that most people have, or whether it's more hateful to use violence through a highly specialized technological stack (communication, legal, rhetorical) carefully cultivated over decades and billions of dollars, resulting in approximately ten times the deaths and injuries of the first method.

You are still ignoring intent.

Hamas PURPOSEFULLY raped and murdered women including babies in their cribs. These thousands of Israeli deaths were not the result of collateral damage of Hamas fighting against Israeli soldiers. Killing Israeli women and children was the goal because they have been taught to see Jews as sub-human.

An Israeli pilot bombing a rocket site that Hamas put in the middle of a population center (which is a war crime on Hamas' part) is not remotely the same thing morally or legally as to what Hamas did this past week. Even if the death toll is 10X. We have rules of war precisely to avoid this type of bloodshed.

Allies tried and executed Nazi guards who ran death camps, they did not prosecute Luftwaffe pilots who were bombing and killing civilians in London.

I believe these types of double standards (Big guy against the Little guy) by many well meaning people who really want to see the violence end has only prolonged the conflict and suffering by giving animals in Hamas excuses and moral support.

 

[Buckminster]

Yuval (Jewish) has been almost pro Palestinian previously. Now more balanced:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1712735657150345265

 

[whisperingshad]

Did ya see that guy with the M3P though... saved his life

 

[aubreymcfato]

You are still ignoring intent.

Hamas PURPOSEFULLY raped and murdered women including babies in their cribs. These thousands of Israeli deaths were not the result of collateral damage of Hamas fighting against Israeli soldiers. Killing Israeli women and children was the goal because they have been taught to see Jews as sub-human.

An Israeli pilot bombing a rocket site that Hamas put in the middle of a population center (which is a war crime on Hamas' part) is not remotely the same thing morally or legally as to what Hamas did this past week. Even if the death toll is 10X. We have rules of war precisely to avoid this type of bloodshed.

Allies tried and executed Nazi guards who ran death camps, they did not prosecute Luftwaffe pilots who were bombing and killing civilians in London.

I believe these types of double standards (Big guy against the Little guy) by many well meaning people who really want to see the violence end has only prolonged the conflict and suffering by giving animals in Hamas excuses and moral support.

How can you not see intent in bombing and killing thousands and thousands of people... Some Israelis are livid and rabid as there are rabid Palestinians. They hate each other. Have you not heard of settlers violence in these years? Children killed? Children that go to schools thrown rocks at? This is on a daily basis. You can't just take one horrible, horrible attack and forget the daily violence of an occupying force. There is intent, and there is hate in both parties. But one is the big guy and the other one the small guy, and the big guy kills 10x the small one. You just need to count.

 

[indysurfer]

How can you not see intent in bombing and killing thousands and thousands of people...

If Israel wanted to kill thousands of people, they would not send text messages and "knock" warnings before they target Hamas rocket sites. Israel is not stupid and knows that every non-combatant killed in Gaza is going to be used against Israel to restrain them from protecting their people from Hamas. Hamas knows this and uses their people as human shields which is a war crime.

Israel has the power to destroy all of Gaza and the West Bank practically overnight if they so desired.

If Hamas had the power of Israel, do you doubt for a millisecond they would not use that power to kill every Israeli - especially after the beyond comprehension and grotesque barbarity we saw this past week?

But one is the big guy and the other one the small guy, and the big guy kills 10x the small one. You just need to count.

If a little guy constantly starts unwinnable fights against a stronger foe that gets lots of people killed, the little guy bares alot of responsibility.

Especially when the little guy PURPOSEFULLY targets civilians in massively grotesque and brutal ways because they are too cowardly to target armed combatants.

 

[FireFighterHil]

Anyone who tries to sell that "Morally equivalent" BS is a disgusting human being.

 

[DayTrippin]

So, looking through stories, it looks like Hamas has been planning this for a while. A lot of the money that should have gone to the people to humanitarian reasons has obviously been spent arming Hamas. So I am sure all the dollars we sent to Iran were used for a good purpose as far as they were concerned.

My biggest concern now is if they have had this long to plan, they have surely set up a lot of traps for the IDF for when they invade. It is good for the IDF to tell all Gazans to leave the northern part. Hamas will likely force them to remain as in the past. They'll use them as shields. IF they could get them to clear out, it would be much safer for the IDF to eliminate the terrorist.

At some point the world will complain about the atrocities Israel is committing and try and force them to stand down. I hope the Gazans will leave the area and leave Hamas to fight. Then maybe the IDF can eradicate them all. At the end of the day though, Gaza supports Hamas and seems to have high favorability amongst Gazans if the articles I read are accurate.

On a second not, I hope all the Harvard students who signed on to support Hamas have their names publicly disclosed so employers will know who they are hiring. If you want to put a statement out in public like that, then have the balls to stand behind your statement. Otherwise, what is the point of taking a stand and having the courage of your convictions?

 

[DayTrippin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1712922048777879556

Nothing there.

 

[madodel]

Weird that people here who seem to have no skin in the game are hell bent on revenge against anyone who disagrees with them. If we can't be civil to one another in a Tesla Forum not sure how anyone expects Israelis and Palestinians to solve their hatred/revenge.

 

[FireFighterHil]

Weird that people here who seem to have no skin in the game are hell bent on revenge against anyone who disagrees with them. If we can't be civil to one another in a Tesla Forum not sure how anyone expects Israelis and Palestinians to solve their hatred/revenge.

No skin in the game? Every human being with morals and a conscious has skin in the game. Especially when you think that we are allowing people who share the same values and beliefs of HAMAS to immigrate into our countries.

 

[aubreymcfato]

If Israel wanted to kill thousands of people, they would not send text messages and "knock" warnings before they target Hamas rocket sites. Israel is not stupid and knows that every non-combatant killed in Gaza is going to be used against Israel to restrain them from protecting their people from Hamas. Hamas knows this and uses their people as human shields which is a war crime.

Israel has the power to destroy all of Gaza and the West Bank practically overnight if they so desired.

If Hamas had the power of Israel, do you doubt for a millisecond they would not use that power to kill every Israeli - especially after the beyond comprehension and grotesque barbarity we saw this past week?



If a little guy constantly starts unwinnable fights against a stronger foe that gets lots of people killed, the little guy bares alot of responsibility.

Especially when the little guy PURPOSEFULLY targets civilians in massively grotesque and brutal ways because they are too cowardly to target armed combatants.

Israel is attacking hospitals right now.
I really don't know which kind of media you have in US, but I know from experience it's pretty unilateral on the issue.
Giving few hours notice doesn't make them good.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1712886892885061811

Israel has been playing this for decades.
Fund the settlers conquer even more land (like East Jerusalem) make things unbearable in Gaza and West Bank.
You can't convince me otherwise, because contrary to most of you I've seen it with my own eyes, I don't just believe what I see on TV or from a beach in Tel Aviv.

 

[FireFighterHil]

Israel is attacking hospitals right now.
I really don't know which kind of media you have in US, but I know from experience it's pretty unilateral on the issue.
Giving few hours notice doesn't make them good.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1712886892885061811

Israel has been playing this for decades.
Fund the settlers conquer even more land (like East Jerusalem) make things unbearable in Gaza and West Bank.
You can't convince me otherwise, because contrary to most of you I've seen it with my own eyes, I don't just believe what I see on TV or from a beach in Tel Aviv.

I didn't know hospitals housed ammunition, terrorists, and indiscriminately shot rockets from the roof into civilian populated areas...

 

[madodel]

For years Netanyahu allowed Hamas to get millions to prop them up and keep them in power in Gaza.

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

Meanwhile, Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip.

 

[madodel]

A friend of mine is raising funds for the Israeli equivalent of the Red Cross, the Magen David Adom. That is Israel's national emergency medical, disaster, ambulance and blood bank service. This is to fund the purchase of emergency medical cycles to respond to terrorist and other medical emergencies.

Saba's Medicycle

 

[FireFighterHil]

For years Netanyahu allowed Hamas to get millions to prop them up and keep them in power in Gaza.

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

HAMAS has also received BILLIONS of aid since 2006 and has used the majority of it to fund terror. They used concrete meant to build infrastructure to instead build tunnels and bunkers. They used pipes and materials meant for water treatment and distribution to instead build rockets and mortars. But yeah, its all Israels fault they live in such deplorable conditions...

 

[indysurfer]

HAMAS has also received BILLIONS of aid since 2006 and has used the majority of it to fund terror. They used concrete meant to build infrastructure to instead build tunnels and bunkers. They used pipes and materials meant for water treatment and distribution to instead build rockets and mortars. But yeah, its all Israels fault they live in such deplorable conditions...

They do it out in the open and are proud of it making promo videos digging up water pipes.

Remember this when they say Gaza has no water.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1712441643280793903

 

[wdolson]

So, looking through stories, it looks like Hamas has been planning this for a while. A lot of the money that should have gone to the people to humanitarian reasons has obviously been spent arming Hamas. So I am sure all the dollars we sent to Iran were used for a good purpose as far as they were concerned.

My biggest concern now is if they have had this long to plan, they have surely set up a lot of traps for the IDF for when they invade. It is good for the IDF to tell all Gazans to leave the northern part. Hamas will likely force them to remain as in the past. They'll use them as shields. IF they could get them to clear out, it would be much safer for the IDF to eliminate the terrorist.

At some point the world will complain about the atrocities Israel is committing and try and force them to stand down. I hope the Gazans will leave the area and leave Hamas to fight. Then maybe the IDF can eradicate them all. At the end of the day though, Gaza supports Hamas and seems to have high favorability amongst Gazans if the articles I read are accurate.

On a second not, I hope all the Harvard students who signed on to support Hamas have their names publicly disclosed so employers will know who they are hiring. If you want to put a statement out in public like that, then have the balls to stand behind your statement. Otherwise, what is the point of taking a stand and having the courage of your convictions?

I don't know why people keep harping on the Iranian money that was held in South Korea that was transferred to a Qatari bank and has not been paid is supposedly funding the Hamas operation when the extra money for this operation probably came from Russia. It's in the Russian's best interests to cause as much turmoil in the Middle East as possible to try and distract the west from Ukraine.

No skin in the game? Every human being with morals and a conscious has skin in the game. Especially when you think that we are allowing people who share the same values and beliefs of HAMAS to immigrate into our countries.

At least for emigrating to the US there is an extensive screening process. I've known people who have gone through it. There is extensive screening for any kind of association with anything anti-social. If someone has any links to any kind of group that the US doesn't like or any kind of arrest record they are going to have a tough time emigrating. I have known people whose process was held up for very minor stuff. I know one who almost got kicked out of the country for a 40 year old shoplifting arrest when he was a kid.

A few people slip through the net, but there is a lot more danger in the US from people who are born in the US who have been radicalized by what they have seen on American made media.

 

[heltok]

How demographics created the current situation: