Ok, thanks. I'll take your word for it, and pass on looking for now.I’ll save you seeing it by telling you it’s pictures of 3 murdered babies, 2 of which have been burned alive.
But still people will say it’s not true
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Israel/Hamas conflict
- Thread starter Buckminster
- Start date
navguy12
Active Member
A screen shot of a portion of a story from a journalist working for The Guardian (from an email from The Guardian to all paid subscribers):
Note the personal observations circled in red:
navguy12
Active Member
Can you provide sources for these reputable polls results?
IMO, like anti social types everywhere, it’s probably 3% of the general population that is hardcore pure supporters of Hamas, while the rest just want to raise a family in peace. Again, IMO.
Tam
Well-Known Member
You might be too angry with the above X link about the decapitation of 40 babies and forget who allowed that to happen:
The end of the Netanyahu doctrine
The prime minister's claim that Middle East peace was possible without the Palestinians has been shattered by Hamas' incursion, and the ensuing war.
www.972mag.com
The Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was angry at the idea of overthrowing the Hamas:
"Galit Distel Atbaryan, wrote in May 2019, when she was yet to enter politics but was known as a prominent Netanyahu supporter. “And Netanyahu, in a kind of outrageous, almost unimaginable restraint, does not do the easiest thing: getting the IDF to overthrow the organization. "
"Indeed, Netanyahu himself had effectively admitted as much a couple of months before Distel Atbaryan made her comments, when he declared in a Likud meeting that “anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support strengthening Hamas. This is part of our strategy, to isolate Palestinians in Gaza from Palestinians in Judea and Samaria.”
Put it in another way: Remember King David, who learned that Bathsheba, wife of Uriah, King David’s elite soldier, was pregnant by the King? King David then arranged the killing of Uriah in the battle to hide the affair.
Misguided readers of the Bible might be angry at the opposing army that physically killed Uriah in the battle and forget that King David was pulling the strings to end Uriah’s life.
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If you post links by Ben Shapiro and Israeli sources, it's not exactly proof. I'm not even saying it didn't happen. It's horrible nonetheless. But we are at hundreds of dead children in Gaza in a few data now. Plus the ones in these months. None of the proisrael people seem to care.
navguy12
Active Member
Agree ref the Ben Shapiro sentiments.
When inflammatory rhetoric aimed at the current PM of Canada included calling the current PM of Canada “worse than Stalin and Hitler”, Mr Shapiro was too happy to amplify that rhetoric.
I’ll save you seeing it by telling you it’s pictures of 3 murdered babies, 2 of which have been burned alive.
But still people will say it’s not true
They were burned, but were they burned alive? Possibly they were, but there is no proof.
Stalin once said the death of one person is a tragedy, the death of a thousand is a statistic. I try to avoid dwelling on getting down into the weeds on individual deaths and maiming in war. When you know something about individual stories, it can be so emotionally heart wrenching that it's impossible to step back and see the big picture. And I do feel for these people when I learn their stories. It takes a lot of will power on my part to remain objective rather than get sucked into the subjectivity. My natural inclination is to be subjective with these things.
War is a horror show that is gruesome beyond comprehension. Soldiers who have been to war frequently have PTSD. My partner treated someone with PTSD from Vietnam so severe he had been institutionalized in mental hospitals a few times. My father was flying in WW II, but I could tell he had PTSD from some of the things he experienced. He only talked about it once.
I've never been in the military (I probably would have been 4F) and I never wanted to be. Even though I have been a student of military history my entire life. I've read and seen enough to know the horrors of what happens in the microcosm. I also know that it's very common for one side to cast the other as inhuman monsters by amplifying these stories to get public support for their cause. Often times one side is more brutal in what they do, but sometimes both sides are equally brutal, but one side has a better PR campaign.
From everything I've seen in the Russia-Ukraine war, while the Ukrainians have done some wrong themselves, they have generally behaved as honorably as possible under the conditions they are in. They were minding their own business, trying to keep the peace with their neighbor, and their neighbor invaded anyway. Most wars have a pretty big gray zone between who is right and who is wrong, but in the case of that war, the right and wrong are about as clear as is possible with a war.
The situation with Israel/Palestine is vastly less clear cut. Both side have done some pretty horrific things to the other. The way they do things differs because of the technology they have at hand. The Palestinians are limited to infantry weapons and can only carry out an insurgency. The Israelis have a modern army and air force and can conduct death at far greater ranges than the Palestinians. Both sides are killing innocent people, they are just doing it in different ways.
How each side behaves with outsiders varies too. Israelis are usually more polite with outsiders than the Palestinians. Upthread we had someone's personal account of dealing with Palestinians. A friend who had to live in Tunisia for a few years (sent there by his company in the oil business) had a lot of bad interactions with Palestinians living in Tunis.
Culturally Israel is essentially a European country with a European culture. Westerners who go there have more in common with the average Israeli than they do the average Palestinian. On top of that the Israelis are the wealthier culture with a well educated and well resourced society. On the other hand a large percentage of the Palestinians are a repressed population with less access to education, resources, and everything else. They have less personal freedoms than the average Israeli. The Muslims who have accepted that Israel is a Jewish state and are willing to acknowledge it have enjoyed a share of the abundance the Israelis enjoy.
To some extent the Palestinians are making their own bed. And at this point the Israelis would be very suspicious of anyone who did voluntarily come in out of the cold.
Both sides are highly suspicious of the other for good reason. Both sides have also been very stubborn about their views and unwilling to yield.
The world has a number of frozen conflicts: the Korean Peninsula, Azerbaijan-Armenia, Georgia, Moldova, Israel-Palestine, and others. Some are artificially created such as Georgia and Moldova. If Russia just abandoned the territory they hold, those conflicts would resolve themselves fairly quickly. Others have deeper roots and there is no clear cut solution. Israel-Palestine is one of these.
Children have died and are dying on both sides in the current conflict. Hamas, because of the limitations of the weapons at their disposal did their killing of children up close and personal. The Israelis are going it at a distance. Israel isn't specifically targeting these individuals, which may be a better thing. I don't have a good answer for that.
If you are a fighter bomber pilot and you release bombs onto a target. You don't see the destruction your payload has wrought. It's an abstraction that the flyboys can enjoy that infantry doesn't have. But on some level you know if your bombs are on target somebody is going to die as a result of your action. Is that "better" than pointing your rifle at someone and pulling the trigger? Deliberately targeting children with your rifle probably is worse from the micro point of view, but from the macro point of view, which is worse?
In my studies of warfare, I have always preferred to study conflicts which have a more clear cut question of who is in the wrong such as the current Ukraine war. Wars like the Israel-Palestine conflict get me chasing my tail because both sides are pretty equally wrong by this stage.
Bet TSLA
Active Member
You are ignoring the "settler" violence on the West Bank, which has been up close and personal and going on for years.
There is definitely an undercurrent in this thread of “Israel brought this on itself..”. And Israel is indiscriminately targeting civilians.
I’m going to post some points of view expressed by others on X. Please consider them.
First a protest in Israel over a massacre that occurred in Lebanon by Israel’s allies. And a challenge by the poster who is Muslim, to identify where Muslims have done anything similar within the Arab world over what just happened.
Second, a post by a Ukrainian on the stage of denial by Russian sympathizers, comparing it to what she is seeing regarding what just happened in Israel
A post (one of several that I have seen) that dispels the notion that Israel is totally responsible for trapping Gazans in Gaza, and is indiscriminately targeting civilians
There was a challenge for a source regarding the “high percentage of Palestinians that support Hamas. Here is a link to a poll reported in the Associated Press
There are plenty of Palestinians and Arabs who do not support Hamas. I have bookmarked a number of those. After Hamas is destroyed, then there can hopefully be a way forward toward peace. This will require support within the broader Arab community, which likely means dealing with Iran who is also fomenting the destruction of Israel.
I’m going to post some points of view expressed by others on X. Please consider them.
First a protest in Israel over a massacre that occurred in Lebanon by Israel’s allies. And a challenge by the poster who is Muslim, to identify where Muslims have done anything similar within the Arab world over what just happened.
Second, a post by a Ukrainian on the stage of denial by Russian sympathizers, comparing it to what she is seeing regarding what just happened in Israel
A post (one of several that I have seen) that dispels the notion that Israel is totally responsible for trapping Gazans in Gaza, and is indiscriminately targeting civilians
There was a challenge for a source regarding the “high percentage of Palestinians that support Hamas. Here is a link to a poll reported in the Associated Press
There are plenty of Palestinians and Arabs who do not support Hamas. I have bookmarked a number of those. After Hamas is destroyed, then there can hopefully be a way forward toward peace. This will require support within the broader Arab community, which likely means dealing with Iran who is also fomenting the destruction of Israel.
So it’s been reported that Israel has informed the UN to evacuate its personnel from the northern part of Gaza and for all inhabitants of the northern part to move to the south. That is a huge number of people. The distance is ~12 miles. Clearly a warning of an impending ground attack. The UN requested Israel rescind the order.
Hamas’ governing authority just issued a statement saying to ignore this, that it is propaganda. Here is the link.
Hamas’ governing authority just issued a statement saying to ignore this, that it is propaganda. Here is the link.
Two interesting interviews:
His point: Why should Israel give electricity, water etc to the enemy when the west and arab world are not doing it?
His point: Israeli holocaust survivor explaining that Israel became the monster they were fleeing from
His point: Why should Israel give electricity, water etc to the enemy when the west and arab world are not doing it?
His point: Israeli holocaust survivor explaining that Israel became the monster they were fleeing from
JupiterMan
Active Member
This is in my view where much of the problem for Israel lies.
Hamas is a political, and terrorist organisation, that will be impossible to fully destroy, as at any time, anyone can become a member of Hamas and adopt their methodology.
We saw this with the absurd USA "war on terror" after 9/11. There, with also good intentions, you had an impossible military objective where the enemy was a way of thinking, and we all saw the outcome - but it took years for the politicians to effectively admit defeat and to withdraw their forces.
Same is possibly true with Hamas today, and whilst there may be some military intelligence to the targets of Israel's strikes in Gaza, they are clearly causing much innocent death also, which will likely only strengthen Hamas's power and increase their membership, not only in Gaza, but in the West Bank and surrounding states too, even if not joining Hamas directly, but other radical groups adopting the same methodology/strategy, against an increasingly demonstrable common enemy.
Unfortunately, I feel it is quite likely we will see increased terrorist activity in the west as an outcome too, particularly so if we begin active military operations alongside Israel.
Even if Israel is able to eventually kill Hamas current leadership, someone else will then take over. Whether it is the same Hamas, or a different Hamas with a different name, it is ultimately an impossible battle with impossible goals.
I don't have any answers here, but it seems to me Israel need a clear military objective, need to legitimately avoid civilian deaths (saying we we warned you is not sufficient), a way of avoiding spread of violence outside of their borders and a way to stop any strengthening of Hamas and their methodology.
I would argue that revenge, as attractive as it may seem in the direct aftermath of the events at the weekend, is not ultimately in Israel's interest.
Israel will hunt down all of the Hamas leadership responsible for orchestrating this terrorism. Much like they eliminated the leadership of the Black September terror organization that brutally murdered the Israeli Olympians at Munich. Horrible acts of torture and mutilation didn't deter them then, and it won't deter them now. However long it takes, justice will be delivered.
Good.
Apparently, all 1500 terrorists from the attack are dead, per IDF sources.
Of course, some chief may be still in the wild.
But then, when can we discuss the killing of thousands of Palestinians civilians? They outta get justice too.
