Tesla need to lower prices soon to stay competitive, its good to see competition finally coming. The S/Xs in particular are way overpriced and have been for years now.
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I've ordered an ID.3
- Thread starter pdk42
- Start date
Tesla need to lower prices soon to stay competitive, its good to see competition finally coming. The S/Xs in particular are way overpriced and have been for years now.
Interesting comments. It seems to me based on reviews that VW got a lot right with the ID3, esp at the core engineering level, but probably as a result of rushing to market, got a few things wrong too.
The interior generally gets good reviews so far as ergonomics, space, and comfort are concerned, but everyone takes a look at the hard plastics on the door cards and compares it to the Golf with unfavourable results. Given that it's £10k cheaper than an SR+, I'm personally OK with it - but I think an LCI will improve it.
The basic engineering and EV drivetrain seem to be well executed though. Bjorn's reviews (and others) show good efficiency (very close to the SR+), a refined cabin (quieter than the Model 3), good driving characteristics, and good build quality (panel fit etc).
Power/performance is notably down compared to the Model 3 and the headline rapid charge rates are lower (but real-world tests show them actually quite close). But remember that the ID3 is £10k cheaper and a smaller car. it's not really in the same market segment - like comparing an Audi A3 to an A4, or a BMW 1 series to a 3 series.
The biggest problem with the ID3 today though is the software - which is definitely a mess. Except for cars being built at the moment, the rest are running beta-level code. It's missing important features such as Carplay/Android Auto, scheduled charging, OTA, HU display and more. Then there are a number of bugs of varying levels of severity - the worst of which is that some people are experiencing flat 12V batteries due to something pulling power even when the vehicle is "off". However, the production software has now been released and existing cars will get retrofitted in Jan. Personally, my expectations are suitably calibrated and I'm OK living with it on the assumption that the production release really does fix it. I'm pretty sure this will happen since VW have made public statements, incl in spec sheets, that it will support things that are currently not enabled. It would be hugely costly and embarrassing for them to go back on it.
Given that we're talking about a £30k EV, it's not reasonable to compare it with the Model 3 which is upwards of £40k. Better comparisons would be the e208, eNiro etc. Against them I think the ID3 compares well.
The interior generally gets good reviews so far as ergonomics, space, and comfort are concerned, but everyone takes a look at the hard plastics on the door cards and compares it to the Golf with unfavourable results. Given that it's £10k cheaper than an SR+, I'm personally OK with it - but I think an LCI will improve it.
The basic engineering and EV drivetrain seem to be well executed though. Bjorn's reviews (and others) show good efficiency (very close to the SR+), a refined cabin (quieter than the Model 3), good driving characteristics, and good build quality (panel fit etc).
Power/performance is notably down compared to the Model 3 and the headline rapid charge rates are lower (but real-world tests show them actually quite close). But remember that the ID3 is £10k cheaper and a smaller car. it's not really in the same market segment - like comparing an Audi A3 to an A4, or a BMW 1 series to a 3 series.
The biggest problem with the ID3 today though is the software - which is definitely a mess. Except for cars being built at the moment, the rest are running beta-level code. It's missing important features such as Carplay/Android Auto, scheduled charging, OTA, HU display and more. Then there are a number of bugs of varying levels of severity - the worst of which is that some people are experiencing flat 12V batteries due to something pulling power even when the vehicle is "off". However, the production software has now been released and existing cars will get retrofitted in Jan. Personally, my expectations are suitably calibrated and I'm OK living with it on the assumption that the production release really does fix it. I'm pretty sure this will happen since VW have made public statements, incl in spec sheets, that it will support things that are currently not enabled. It would be hugely costly and embarrassing for them to go back on it.
Given that we're talking about a £30k EV, it's not reasonable to compare it with the Model 3 which is upwards of £40k. Better comparisons would be the e208, eNiro etc. Against them I think the ID3 compares well.
HenryT
Active Member
This was pretty much the thinking that lead us to buy an ID.3 to replace my wife’s ageing Golf. MG was the only other contender, but felt a bit ‘old tech’.
Pleased with it so far, particularly the efficiency compared to my MS.
Recent scandal aside, VW have a really good track record of incremental improvement over the long term and make good quality products IMO. My young son just bought a Polo GTI. It is a fantastic little car for the money and his dealership experience has been great. I fully expect VAG to become a major player in EVs in the medium term. I’m heartened to read about your positive pre-sales experience, I hope after sales matches it, that the car is a corker and improvements are made to the charging networks open to you with it.
I do not wish any harm to Tesla, but I really want to see more competition in the market to force them to improve many aspects of their software, build quality and service.
I do not wish any harm to Tesla, but I really want to see more competition in the market to force them to improve many aspects of their software, build quality and service.
Elon did an interview today for a German Battery Convention and during it casually mentioned he would like Giga Berlin to design and build a compact car, probably a hatchback. Sounds a lot like the ID3. A klaxon will have gone off at VWHQ. His comments are at 17:30 - hopefully the link starts from there.
I’d say it’s more likely that the ID3 caused a klaxon to go off in Elon’s head as he’s realised the threat posed by VW and other manufacturers. Tesla has been a brilliant innovator and so far has led the way, but that’s no guarantee it will continue to do so. VW is beginning to get serious about electric, which means the next few years will be very interesting.
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
I think the really big shake up has to be when Toyota, the world's largest (if not the most valuable) car maker starts to get serious about electric cars. Toyota's position is really odd, given the way they tackled their "Millenium Car", which became the Prius, with the goal of producing zero emission cars in the early part of the 21st century. It's almost as if, having poured all that innovation into the Prius, Toyota have lost interest. The Mirai fuel cell car seems like the Betamax of EVs now.
Toyota seem to have finally woken up, with their battery EV vehicle launches scheduled for next year, but I have a feeling that it's too little, too late, and that Toyota seriously missed out by not capitalising on the technological lead they developed in the 1990s, with what became the Prius. Volkswagen seem likely to win a significant part of the big market for C segment cars, simply because they don't really have much competition. Tesla don't seem to be interested in smaller cars, others, like Honda and Fiat, seem to be focussing on electric city cars, and probably VWs biggest rival in the C segment category, Toyota, seems to have taken its eye off the ball. All VW need to do to succeed is sort out the bugs in the ID.3 and the chances are they will have another Golf in terms of sales success.
Toyota seem to have finally woken up, with their battery EV vehicle launches scheduled for next year, but I have a feeling that it's too little, too late, and that Toyota seriously missed out by not capitalising on the technological lead they developed in the 1990s, with what became the Prius. Volkswagen seem likely to win a significant part of the big market for C segment cars, simply because they don't really have much competition. Tesla don't seem to be interested in smaller cars, others, like Honda and Fiat, seem to be focussing on electric city cars, and probably VWs biggest rival in the C segment category, Toyota, seems to have taken its eye off the ball. All VW need to do to succeed is sort out the bugs in the ID.3 and the chances are they will have another Golf in terms of sales success.
Toyota's position is not that odd...for Toyota. They very rarely innovate (the Prius is a fantastic exception.) They generally see what works in the market and then do it more efficiently (think Chrysler Voyager/Renault Espace and the Toyota Previa). They are an improvement machine - they make thousands of incremental improvements over time to improve quality and reduce cost (that's their "moat".) They are not the biggest car manufacturer for no reason. And they are not to be underestimated. But...
Tesla has created a paradigm shift. Elon is not interested in "moats" and does not see them as a competitive advantage. He sees this as a foot race and the only way to win is speed of innovation. In that regard, and for the next decade, all the legacy car manufacturers have a huge issue. Elon said in the battery day presentation that ultimately all EV's will have great range and autonomy, and then the only way to survive is to have the best production system "and that is our goal."
My industry was Photo processing. We were a major player and Kodak UK's largest customer. in 2011 we went into administration and Kodak effectively did the same. My perspective on this comes from that. VW and Toyota have the best chance of surviving this. Tesla cannot logistically make all the cars in the World, right? Right?? I am genuinely beginning to wonder if that is in Elon's head, regardless of him saying in 2030 they will make 20m cars. If a car is cheaper and better the only reason you would not buy one is lack of availability. And Tesla seems to be able to roll out Terafactories in about a year. With two on the go at the same time (Berlin and Texas.)
Also, with high fixed cost industries (like cars and photo processing) you don't need to lose all of your business to become unviable. Losing 15% per annum for around 3 years should do it. And the legacy automakers face huge restructuring costs to transition to the zero carbon future. How will they fund that whilst funding their new EV production.
Sorry for the long rant...
The VW Golf is the winning form factor in Europe, no doubt about that. I just bought my daughter a VW Polo and it is gorgeous. It's beautifully put together and has lovely touches such as a rubberised finish down low on the sides to avoid stone chips and door seals that stop water ingress onto the lower door seals. That £17k car has that when my £50k M3 does not.
However, looking at Tesla they have been constrained by the supply of batteries and also the cost of batteries. Battery day developments should remove both these issues. Elon is on record as saying he isn't doing this to build premium cars for rich people: he just wants to transition the World to sustainable energy. He also wants to use the European design talent he is recruiting for Berlin to design a compact hatchback for this reason. I would love to have been able to buy my daughter a Tesla for the same price (or a bit more) than the price of the VW Polo. I guess that days is coming, but not until later this decade.
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
I think my expectations were raised when Toyota developed the Prius. I bought a new Prius in 2005, when it was the European car of the year, and mine came with a small book (that I still have) called "Prius That Shook The World". The book's hard going, as it was translated directly (and badly) from Japanese to English, but the thing that stands out is just how much technical resource Toyota put into the Prius. It really was a revolution within Toyota, they seemed to tear up Toyota's traditional model and create a wholly new way of designing a car. I expected Toyota to carry on in the same vein, and the second new Prius I bought (in 2010) and the Plug-In Prius I bought (in 2013) seemed to support that view, although the Plug-In Prius was disappointing in not having a decent EV mode range - a sign of things to come, perhaps.
With the MEB platform, VW seem to have tackled EV design in much the same way as Toyota tackled the design of the Prius, a ground up design, with little or no connection to the design concepts VW have used in the past. Nissan and Renault (as well as Tesla) have shown that approaching medium sized EV design from the ground up works well, and it seems that EVs that have been designed with no option for an ICE model are generally significantly better overall, perhaps because there are fewer design compromises.
With the MEB platform, VW seem to have tackled EV design in much the same way as Toyota tackled the design of the Prius, a ground up design, with little or no connection to the design concepts VW have used in the past. Nissan and Renault (as well as Tesla) have shown that approaching medium sized EV design from the ground up works well, and it seems that EVs that have been designed with no option for an ICE model are generally significantly better overall, perhaps because there are fewer design compromises.
JC100
Member
I've done exactly the same as you, although I have'nt got my Model 3 yet. I placed my order mid-Sept for my model 3 (picking up mid-Dec) but thought in for a penny.... (bought both via my Ltd co for the tax benefits) and traded my old car in for a new ID.3 for my wife. Had it for 1 month so far, it was the showroom model (1st Edition) at VW Solihull, however unlike yours they woudn't budge on price - agreed eventually to pay a bit more for my Range Rover (£3K more than Tesla offered) in PX but nothing off the £38.5k retail price.
My wife loves the ID.3 although we've had quite a few niggles which have driven me mad. Biggest one's are: the App is rubbish - cannot programme charging to start or stop at times to choose and as I have a Tesla Wall charger without timer settings, it means I cannot take advantage of cheaper night time rates unless I start manually late at night. Also, the app is very hit and miss - setting car to warm up sometimes says its on on the App but car is cold when you get in. The lane control sysytem needs sorting, you cannot deactivate it by default so when your driving country roads avoiding the pot holes the car is trying drag you back to the left with warnings going off all the time. Also, had issues with the charging cable not releasing when it should and the infotainment system is slow to respond on start up.
However, I remain hopeful that some of these niggles will be sorted with the big update that's due, although the car will have to go in for this as remote updates are not yet available. We'll see how it goes. There is a dedicated UK forum: Volkswagen ID.3 Forum - Forum for all Volkswagen ID.3 Owners
Thanks for that. Your experience pretty well summarises what I’ve gleaned from the various forums. I’m ready to ride out the first release software problems, esp since it seems the production release is now rolling. I’m pretty sure it’ll address the scheduled charging issue - or I hope so since I too have a dumb charger that can’t be programmed for a start time.
I got 2.0 just before Christmas. It’s fixed a lot of the problems thankfully. It’s also added a few useful new features too, including CarPlay which is great. No OTA yet, but apparently that’s coming in 2.1 soon. There are still some software frustrations, but in the main it’s working well. The car’s fundamentals are really excellent - build, drivetrain, battery, BMS. I like it!!
The fact that you can secure a discount on the ID.3 will make it more appealing. Autoebid are offering a 15% discount. I’ve bought through them before (22% off an A6) so I know the offers are genuine.
Or you could get 21% off a Renault Zoe, 16% off a Nissan Leaf and 9% off a Jaguar I-PACE. These are significant savings and I’m sure will impact on people’s choice. Time for Tesla to lower their prices!
Or you could get 21% off a Renault Zoe, 16% off a Nissan Leaf and 9% off a Jaguar I-PACE. These are significant savings and I’m sure will impact on people’s choice. Time for Tesla to lower their prices!
If Tesla can sell all the cars they can make at the current pricing then that won't happen. The price of other manufacturers' cars is not economically relevant. If they are ever left with cars unsold then obviously the price is likely to move.
john19951
Member
Careful with Autoebid - they claim 10% discount, but their actual discount is only 4% on an ID.3
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