Just a Place Keeper to See if I Am Right About the Future of AP1

[green1]

You're guilty of selective quoting. You eliminated my point that they can do whatever they bloody want on new releases. BUT I 100% concur that you should have the right to refuse.

On existing cars, they're applying some additional safety limits on a feature, but ONLY if you choose to install it. That's the same as choosing to install a 3 speed transmission to replace a 4 speed. You should absolutely be permitted to opt out. And similarly, Tesla is not obligated to provide you with any further updates to your car at any time.

They may well be guilty of installing without asking at service appointments. And if they do that, then I have no debate; that should not happen.

In that case we agree, with the following caveats: As long as I have a warranty, no functionality on the older release should stop working (ie when Tesla removed voice control and maps from pre-7.1 cars) and any other warranty issues should be resolved without forcing an update (ie all the people who have had to have the firmware re-flashed when any electronic hardware (like door handles, charge ports, motors, etc) needs to be replaced)

 

[green1]

Really? So you've initiated a law suit?

I have initiated actions with regulatory organizations after Tesla ignored all my attempts to come to an agreement.

 

[green1]

Again, when car makers and the NHTSA come to agreements on restrictions, the agreements are confidential and cannot be disclosed..

That is 100% BS, it has never once in the history of the automobile been true. And it would be counterproductive to the NHTSA's very mandate if it were.

Your continued insistence on this point is baffling, and reeks of conspiracy theory.

I know you're looking for ANYONE to blame other than Tesla, but at some point you're going to have to face the fact that this is Tesla's doing. Not some secret government conspiracy.

 

[sandpiper]

Getting prepped for the next big disappointment.

Yep... I'm the camp that doesn't expect L5 cars in the next 20 years. I don't for a second think that AP2.0 will ever come close - at least not of actual delivered production vehicles, mostly because of the legal issues and that last fraction of a % where people will still outperform. Elon's personal vehicle might have an unofficial L5 enable button.

But, I still think it's cool that they're getting progressively better, and I want to be part of the ride. And so I'll still upgrade my P85D to whatever is current in a year from now.

 

[AWDtsla]

Yep... I'm the camp that doesn't expect L5 cars in the next 20 years. I don't for a second think that AP2.0 will ever come close - at least not of actual delivered production vehicles, mostly because of the legal issues and that last fraction of a % where people will still outperform. Elon's personal vehicle might have an unofficial L5 enable button.

But, I still think it's cool that they're getting progressively better, and I want to be part of the ride. And so I'll still upgrade my P85D to whatever is current in a year from now.

AP2 may deliver on what was promised in AP1, I suspect not much more. Now what are people going to do about the $8-10k they sunk into "fully self driving"?

 

[Lumpy]

Unless Tesla has removed the beta badge off AP I don't think legal action will stick.
You're all part of a paid experiment (YOU are paying) and you all know it or should know it. Tesla will change the variables as they feel fit/safe. The road to autonomous driving is a long and sometimes dangerous one. I understand that Tesla feels the need to limit AP capabilities to match the hardware and software limit as they see them.
If you don't like what I am saying, please tell me what you think beta means.
(Ducks and runs)

I agree entirely. As I said in a post a couple of weeks ago: I know I may be a heretic, but I am not surprised that restrictions on AP 1.0 are coming. It was always beta software and its limitations will become increasingly pronounced as AP 2.0 matures -- the future is that AP 1.0 will become non-supported legacy hardware/software. I would not be surprised that it will be forced into retirement by regulators -- this would probably be good for the safety of the public and for Tesla. I won't miss it much. The best part of owning a Tesla, in my view, is driving one.

 

[sandpiper]

I have initiated actions with regulatory organizations after Tesla ignored all my attempts to come to an agreement.

Interesting. Canadian ones? If you have the same experience I've had dealing with our government, I rather suspect your current car will have been melted back down to aluminum ingots long before you get any results.

 

[sandpiper]

In that case we agree, with the following caveats: As long as I have a warranty, no functionality on the older release should stop working (ie when Tesla removed voice control and maps from pre-7.1 cars) and any other warranty issues should be resolved without forcing an update (ie all the people who have had to have the firmware re-flashed when any electronic hardware (like door handles, charge ports, motors, etc) needs to be replaced)

I agree 100% with this.

 

[lolachampcar]

sandpiper,
There is allowing updates with full disclosure and then there is not putting the funny business in the release notes to get people to accept it without knowing. +5 to 0 and "launch mode" counter are two examples we know of. If there are two we have found.........

 

[green1]

AP2 may deliver on what was promised in AP1, I suspect not much more. Now what are people going to do about the $8-10k they sunk into "fully self driving"?

My bet is that the "fully self driving" part will be required to even meet the AP1 promises. as without that "feature" it will likely continue to insist on you applying torque to the steering wheel every few seconds.

 

[sandpiper]

AP2 may deliver on what was promised in AP1, I suspect not much more. Now what are people going to do about the $8-10k they sunk into "fully self driving"?

That's my question. I'm certain that there's some legal wording around this, somewhere that creates a loophole for Tesla. When I do upgrade, there is no chance that I buy "full auto". If and when it becomes something worthwhile, I'll pay for it at the higher price then.

 

[sandpiper]

sandpiper,
There is allowing updates with full disclosure and then there is not putting the funny business in the release notes to get people to accept it without knowing. +5 to 0 and "launch mode" counter are two examples we know of. If there are two we have found.........

I also agree. Of course, the net result of all of this will simply be that Tesla will have an ever growing set of T&C's resembling the lunacy put out by software companies for all of the same reasons.

 

[green1]

That's my question. I'm certain that there's some legal wording around this, somewhere that creates a loophole for Tesla. When I do upgrade, there is no chance that I buy "full auto". If and when it becomes something worthwhile, I'll pay for it at the higher price then.

On AP2 they've put a ton of very clear caveats on the FSD part of AP, so many that they don't need to deliver on it at all to keep your money.
On AP1 the only caveat given was "over the coming months", which doesn't give them nearly the same wiggle room, especially as the law does in fact have ways of evaluating vague time claims in terms of reasonableness, as well as looking at indications as to whether or not the company actually is working towards delivering on the promise.

 

[green1]

I also agree. Of course, the net result of all of this will simply be that Tesla will have an ever growing set of T&C's resembling the lunacy put out by software companies for all of the same reasons.

There's still a lot of debate over whether those are enforceable at all, especially if they don't seem to match what was advertised.
Not to mention the fact that my car came with no such nonsense, so Tesla has none to fall back on.

 

[HX_Guy]

On AP2 they've put a ton of very clear caveats on the FSD part of AP, so many that they don't need to deliver on it at all to keep your money.
On AP1 the only caveat given was "over the coming months", which doesn't give them nearly the same wiggle room, especially as the law does in fact have ways of evaluating vague time claims in terms of reasonableness, as well as looking at indications as to whether or not the company actually is working towards delivering on the promise.

At this point I think there is very very little, if any, uproar about FSD. Tesla is very clear other website that FSD is a ways out and there is no known timeframe at all.

Autopilot / Enhanced Autopilot on the other had is a whole other story. It's like beating a dead horse now, but at least 50% of my decision of buying a Tesla was the safety features of Autopilot. The emergency breaking, the lane keeping, the accident avoidance...plus the convenience features like TACC. I ended up FSD but only because I bought an inventory car - originally I was going to order a new build and did not intend to purchase FSD at this time. I even asked my sales rep if FSD could be disabled and was told no - now Im actually finding out differently, that it is possible to disable. I may actually follow up with Tesla and see if I can get a refund on FSD and have it disabled.

 

[Canuck]

That is 100% BS, it has never once in the history of the automobile been true. And it would be counterproductive to the NHTSA's very mandate if it were.

Now you are just making stuff up because here is the actual NHTSA mandate:

"Save lives, prevent injuries, reduce vehicle-related crashes."

It is not to negotiate in public in order to achieve these ends. Also, read page 291 of the book "Counsel for the Situation", and the chapter entitled "Building the Washington Practice" with the paragraph that starts ""Most initial-defect proceedings are settled by negotiations between the NHTSA and the automobile manufacturer, resulting in an agreed voluntary corrective action plan." Read about how the actual negotiations work, with real life examples, and stop spewing this nonsense:

I know you're looking for ANYONE to blame other than Tesla, but at some point you're going to have to face the fact that this is Tesla's doing. Not some secret government conspiracy.

I blamed Tesla! Your conspiracy theories are a joke. You really expect us to believe that Tesla and the NHTSA have been working together for months, with no orders issued, and the NHTSA has not negotiated any changes to AP1.0 with Tesla? Now there's some crazy and bizarre mind at work right there!

Read a book by a lawyer for lawyers about this issue (among many others). Then again, you will probably tell me that book was published as part of the conspiracy theory...

 

[green1]

[QUOTE="HX_Guy, post: 1901150, member: 10338"Autopilot / Enhanced Autopilot on the other had is a whole other story. It's like beating a dead horse now, but at least 50% of my decision of buying a Tesla was the safety features of Autopilot. The emergency breaking, the lane keeping, the accident avoidance...plus the convenience features like TACC.[/QUOTE]
You may be interested to know, that unlike many emergency braking systems on the market, Tesla claims their system will NOT avoid a collision, but will only reduce the impact of an already unavoidable one. (I know, the marketing material says otherwise, but reports from many people who have been in collisions, and the manual both agree that AEB on a Tesla will NOT avoid a collision)

 

[oktane]

There's still a lot of debate over whether those are enforceable at all, especially if they don't seem to match what was advertised.

Agreed, it doesn't matter what Tesla makes you sign. You can't sign away your right to fair compensation if you pay money for something and get nothing in return. If Tesla doesn't deliver on FSD they WILL be issuing refunds. I want to be an optimist and say Tesla will eventually deliver on it's promises, but my short ownership experience with Tesla is making me more cynical.

 

[HX_Guy]

You may be interested to know, that unlike many emergency braking systems on the market, Tesla claims their system will NOT avoid a collision, but will only reduce the impact of an already unavoidable one. (I know, the marketing material says otherwise, but reports from many people who have been in collisions, and the manual both agree that AEB on a Tesla will NOT avoid a collision)

This is true for all Teslas, even on AP1? That strikes me as super odd - why would they not program it to come to a complete stop?

 

[green1]

Now you are just making stuff up because here is the actual NHTSA mandate:

"Save lives, prevent injuries, reduce vehicle-related crashes."

Which is hard to do when you don't tell anyone what you're doing. So instead, you think that they have secretly ordered a mandatory recall (which has never before in the entire history of the automobile) and not told the owners? Additionally, you think it saves lives if each and every manufacturer makes all the same mistakes, and then goes through the same super top secret negotiations, instead of just seeing what the last manufacturer dealt with?

""Most initial-defect proceedings are settled by negotiations between the NHTSA and the automobile manufacturer, resulting in an agreed voluntary corrective action plan."

Yes, when a manufacturer has a DEFECT, in other words, a part that is not meeting the legal specifications, or is breaking and causing problems. Not when the NHTSA is setting brand new rules for how a system should behave.

Read about how the actual negotiations work, with real life examples, and stop spewing this non-sense:

I will repeat exactly the same thing: Read about how the actual negotiations work, with real life examples, and stop spewing this non-sense

I blamed Tesla!

You partially blamed Tesla for one small aspect, you blamed the NHTSA for everything else.

Your conspiracy theories are a joke.

I'm not the one rambling on about secret meetings with top secret government organizations....

You really expect us to believe that Tesla and the NHTSA have been working together for months, with no orders issued, and the NHTSA has not negotiated any changes to AP1.0 with Tesla. Now there's some crazy and bizarre mind at work right there!

As the NHTSA has never in it's history issued a secret recall order, and especially not without letting the owners be notified. I think the "crazy and bizzare mind" would be the one who believes that this has in fact happened.