That might be, but I found the Karma felt like a boat in the corners (it's the only time it "felt" really heavy), whereas the Model S was "on rails". I'd far rather take the Model S on a racetrack than a Karma!
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Karma -vs- Model S
- Thread starter doug
- Start date
That might be, but I found the Karma felt like a boat in the corners (it's the only time it "felt" really heavy), whereas the Model S was "on rails". I'd far rather take the Model S on a racetrack than a Karma!
[Note: I wrote this before Dr Computer's post. Just uploading now.]
Drove the Model S and Karma short dives a week apart. Quick impressions.
Karma
Interior is cramped, or swaddling depending on your mood. Back seat is best suited for a suit. And a briefcase.
Entry porthole is as small (smaller?) than the Roadster. Just higher up.
Soon as the car was on I asked if the steering could be adjusted (no). There was a delay between wheel turn and car turn that could be measured in automotive millenniums.l Slow response with a heavy feel. Not as heavy as the car looks but still a lot of heavy.
I'd like to say the acceleration with engine on and motor was disappointing but I had read enough reviews that is was exactly what was expected. Chevy Volt feel with an added turbo whine and speed bump. The EV smile is there but it felt similar to the Roadster's range mode. That nose looks like it should be carrying a V10 or a jet engine but you might say Jessica Simpson should have something more under the hood too. Sorry.
Backing up has a terrible cogging. It's in the creep as well but not as pronounced. Like a low resolution stepper motor or wooden playing cards in the wheel spokes.
Loved the paddle regen interface (Audi and BMW are talking about this too) . Three settings that are supposed to be normal, coast, and heavy but the heaviest was so weak as to be unnoticeable. Fortunately to find the differences you can speed to 50, lift the accelerator, and while slowing, you can cycle through the regen setting to see the slowing changes. Heaviest can not be compared to downshifting unless you had a 10 speed gearbox It's weaker than the S. More like the Leaf.
The center screen was slow to react as well and was just plain dark but I did not get time to delve into it.
Liked the steering wheel setup overall. CC and radio controls better than the S and the center cluster was visible and clear to understand like the S but not as versatile.
Our car had a glitch when the backup camera failed and we had to reboot be shutting the car down for two minutes to get it working again. Our R switch was cracked too.
Styling.
The K is a car that you want to be seen in. It's a commanding car that demands to be acknowledged. The S is more sedate it would blend in if it were no so lithe.
A Karma is PT Barnum and The Model S is Cirque du Soleil.
Model S
Roomy almost to a fault. Needs more places to put things near the driver and seat bolsters for spirited driving would be nice.
Tried all three steering setting and would still want one more. A Roadster emulator would be perfect. Even if the slow speed steering needed gorilla arms to turn it would be worth it to have that kind of response. Did some slalom moves like Will did (passengers got sick) and was impressed how the size belies it's weight Best steering setup it has is better than the Karma's singular setting.
Acceleration at first is nice. Definitely Roadster worthy for it's size. But then shockingly it keeps accelerating. Really? Is this happening? If you pushed a Roadster and the Model S out of an airplane at 20,000 feet which one will reach Terminal velocity first? The S is T.V. powered. Meanwhile someone is spooling out cable to slowly bring the Karma to earth.
Handling is also a shocker. I did the onramp sweeper like Will (no MPH noted) but we were chirping the tires and had the exact thought he voiced. "Better than the Roadster" at the end of that sweep the Roadster would push and require a let off and/or some hard hard steering turn to make that last 40 feet on curve. The Model S was like it was running on a slot track. With 8 or 900 pounds of passengers that was nothing short of incredible. I have 10 years of SCCA racing experience and this car will out- turn so many race cars I have driven it's not funny. Road Atlanta and NASCAR needs to watch out for low CG electrics.
Regen. Not enough, Roadster also not enough. More settings. Put the switching on the steering wheel. Regen is a driving tool and we need Tesla to get that (like BMW and Audi)
Screen is big bright and clear. In my short drive I picked up about a 1/3 of the UI but I blasted my passengers to bloody ears fiddling with the steering wheel controls. Not bad, just need a few more "rental car" experimentation to get it.
We had an error light on the S (forgot what that was) and saw at least one car driving with the charge port door open but the Karma has been out for 8 months. I'm told they are on 7.0 of the software and still not done. Don't know what we had but you would think it would be the latest.
Karma wins in Over the Top syle, a gasoline backup if you want that and sumptuous interior materials.
Model S wins on quickness, speed and nimble-ness. And carrying room (The frunk is as big at Fisker's trunk alone) And operational cost. And passenger room. And driver interface.
And that's it. Spend your $100,000 and get the;
Karma if you enjoy being seen in.
Model S if you enjoy driving.
Drove the Model S and Karma short dives a week apart. Quick impressions.
Karma
Interior is cramped, or swaddling depending on your mood. Back seat is best suited for a suit. And a briefcase.
Entry porthole is as small (smaller?) than the Roadster. Just higher up.
Soon as the car was on I asked if the steering could be adjusted (no). There was a delay between wheel turn and car turn that could be measured in automotive millenniums.l Slow response with a heavy feel. Not as heavy as the car looks but still a lot of heavy.
I'd like to say the acceleration with engine on and motor was disappointing but I had read enough reviews that is was exactly what was expected. Chevy Volt feel with an added turbo whine and speed bump. The EV smile is there but it felt similar to the Roadster's range mode. That nose looks like it should be carrying a V10 or a jet engine but you might say Jessica Simpson should have something more under the hood too. Sorry.
Backing up has a terrible cogging. It's in the creep as well but not as pronounced. Like a low resolution stepper motor or wooden playing cards in the wheel spokes.
Loved the paddle regen interface (Audi and BMW are talking about this too) . Three settings that are supposed to be normal, coast, and heavy but the heaviest was so weak as to be unnoticeable. Fortunately to find the differences you can speed to 50, lift the accelerator, and while slowing, you can cycle through the regen setting to see the slowing changes. Heaviest can not be compared to downshifting unless you had a 10 speed gearbox It's weaker than the S. More like the Leaf.
The center screen was slow to react as well and was just plain dark but I did not get time to delve into it.
Liked the steering wheel setup overall. CC and radio controls better than the S and the center cluster was visible and clear to understand like the S but not as versatile.
Our car had a glitch when the backup camera failed and we had to reboot be shutting the car down for two minutes to get it working again. Our R switch was cracked too.
Styling.
The K is a car that you want to be seen in. It's a commanding car that demands to be acknowledged. The S is more sedate it would blend in if it were no so lithe.
A Karma is PT Barnum and The Model S is Cirque du Soleil.
Model S
Roomy almost to a fault. Needs more places to put things near the driver and seat bolsters for spirited driving would be nice.
Tried all three steering setting and would still want one more. A Roadster emulator would be perfect. Even if the slow speed steering needed gorilla arms to turn it would be worth it to have that kind of response. Did some slalom moves like Will did (passengers got sick) and was impressed how the size belies it's weight Best steering setup it has is better than the Karma's singular setting.
Acceleration at first is nice. Definitely Roadster worthy for it's size. But then shockingly it keeps accelerating. Really? Is this happening? If you pushed a Roadster and the Model S out of an airplane at 20,000 feet which one will reach Terminal velocity first? The S is T.V. powered. Meanwhile someone is spooling out cable to slowly bring the Karma to earth.
Handling is also a shocker. I did the onramp sweeper like Will (no MPH noted) but we were chirping the tires and had the exact thought he voiced. "Better than the Roadster" at the end of that sweep the Roadster would push and require a let off and/or some hard hard steering turn to make that last 40 feet on curve. The Model S was like it was running on a slot track. With 8 or 900 pounds of passengers that was nothing short of incredible. I have 10 years of SCCA racing experience and this car will out- turn so many race cars I have driven it's not funny. Road Atlanta and NASCAR needs to watch out for low CG electrics.
Regen. Not enough, Roadster also not enough. More settings. Put the switching on the steering wheel. Regen is a driving tool and we need Tesla to get that (like BMW and Audi)
Screen is big bright and clear. In my short drive I picked up about a 1/3 of the UI but I blasted my passengers to bloody ears fiddling with the steering wheel controls. Not bad, just need a few more "rental car" experimentation to get it.
We had an error light on the S (forgot what that was) and saw at least one car driving with the charge port door open but the Karma has been out for 8 months. I'm told they are on 7.0 of the software and still not done. Don't know what we had but you would think it would be the latest.
Karma wins in Over the Top syle, a gasoline backup if you want that and sumptuous interior materials.
Model S wins on quickness, speed and nimble-ness. And carrying room (The frunk is as big at Fisker's trunk alone) And operational cost. And passenger room. And driver interface.
And that's it. Spend your $100,000 and get the;
Karma if you enjoy being seen in.
Model S if you enjoy driving.
I get the impression the acceleration pecking order is something like...
- Roadster Sport
- Roadster
- S 85 Perf
- S 85
- Roadster in range mode
- S 60
- Karma
- S 40
That's a guess. I'm sure someone will correct me.
DrTaras
R254->R725->S->X->M3->M3P-->R2020?
Agree with this to a certain degree...Although I do not think that the Model S is a drivers car.
Biggest problem I see with Tesla's products is exterior styling vs perception
Lets be honest here the Model S does not look like a 109k car....The Karma looks to be a more expensive car than it is. The Roadster does not look to be a 150k vehicle (or even a 100k vehicle) etc. When I drove a Karma I thought it was quite brilliant with regards to road feel. The Model S to me feels artificial. Having said that I am excited to get my Model S, although I can see why people enjoy the Karma and may select it over the Model S.
The Roadster and S are both designed to not offend. No visual styling things to grab your eye and make a statement. Part of me wishes they would do something with stronger personality cues but at the same time I know it helps sell more cars and who knows? I might not like it.
By the way. The Karma grill looks just fine in person. In black on a dark car it's a total non-issue.
By the way. The Karma grill looks just fine in person. In black on a dark car it's a total non-issue.
Agree with this - the styling on the Karma makes it the best looking car on the road. That's a big reason why I bought it. The other was the EV part of it with the range extender (I drive 300-400 miles a weekend when I'm in town, and some times do the PCH LA/SF run). There's no doubt that the Model S' drivetrain is more elegant, ditto on its component packaging. I think if Tesla and Fisker were to get married and have kids, the babies would be perfect! Karma styling with Tesla tech (and who knows, maybe Tesla could engineer a much better range extender that gets 80+MPG! or at least easily swappable battery packs - in fact, there are several companies looking at oil-less light weight range extenders like Bladon Jets, KSPG, etc which are much smaller/lighter/easier to maintain than the repurposed 4-cyls used by Fisker).
Having sat in both cars, the Karma feels sportier/more cockpit like, while the Model S feels more like an Apple car, very cool tech, open, airy. Have not driven the Model S yet, so we'll see how that goes, but the Karma has a good amount of pickup and handles very well in turns.
Last edited:
rolosrevenge
Dr. EVS
Right, Elon said something like Henrik delivered a design that was totally unusable. Wonder if he did something like the Karma where it was all looks first, and functionality and aerodynamics last.
FFF
Model S functionality > Karma functionality
unless you want to go 500 mi at a time and carry nothing with you
~I did an 8 hr drive yesterday (Carmel - Eureka) and wouldn't have made it back in time to pick up my dogs if I needed to stop and charge (too hung over from wedding party to leave early:redface
BUT - I wouldn't have been able to bring back a boatload of fresh veggies and all of the crap we had in the trunk and back seats If I was in a Karma (and the dogs love doggy daycare and wouldn't mind an extra day)Karma vanity > Model S vanity
If only we could see the designs! Fisker designed the Artega GT, the Atlantic and the Karma (among his other designs at BMW/Aston Martin). Btw, if the Karma were the original design for the Model S, you'd have a lot more usable storage space and room. Rather than the battery tunnel in the cabin, you'd have a flat pack beneath the feet. Instead of the limited trunk space in the Fisker Karma, the "Tesla Karma" would have the much smaller electric motors with integrated inverter which would free up another 60-70% more trunk room. Oh yeah, and there's the ICE - which, if this were a Tesla pure EV, would not exist - so the "Tesla Karma" too, would also have a "frunk."
Regarding the Cd of the car, the Karma's is 0.31 is admittedly worse than the Model S' 0.24 but still great by comparison to, say, Ferrari's sleekest, the 458, which is 0.33 and even the "efficiency drives design" Toyota Prius which is 0.30. Also, given the ICE of the Fisker Karma, its drag coefficient is affected by the vents needed to cool the ICE. As Tesla noted with its active air flaps, the Cd can be greatly reduced when those flaps close, leading one to think that if the "Tesla Karma" had no such ICE need for cooling, it would also benefit from a lower Cd. Just my $0.02.
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