Karma -vs- Model S

[doug]

Given the 10 and 30 minute reviews are quite positive for the Model S is there a comparison to early Fisker reviews?

I only remember "it's pretty good for a hybrid" type drive reviews. Not, "I want one"

I remember the first drive reviews of the Karma to be generally positive except for the engine noise.

This MotorTrend article says "second drive," but it's from shortly after CotB Ray Lane got his car, so it's roughly equivalent.
Fisker Karma Second Drive - Motor Trend

The sprint from 0-60 mph takes just 5.9 seconds in Sport mode according to Fisker, but it's a noisy affair. Although the engine switches on seamlessly and idles quietly in the background when cruising along, it's designed to not only provide enough electricity to move forward, but charge the batteries to at least 50 percent at the same time. When you ask for a burst of acceleration it needs to work harder and rev higher, and a harsh engine note penetrates the cabin, sounding less than premium.

For some discerning customers this has the potential to be a deal-breaker...

Since then Fisker has mitigated the noise issue somewhat, but took a hit in performance. They now claim a 6.3 second 0-60 in Sport mode.

 

[vfx]

Well, (as discussed in the Model S First Drive Reviews thread) the Automobile mag review of the Model S said: "Frankly, we didn't notice anything exceptional about the cornering in comparison to, say, an Audi A7 or Fisker Karma" -- but comments on that article are pointing out the flaws in that sentence let alone the rest of the piece, so I don't read much into it.

Would be interesting to compare reviews from the same publication after first drives of each vehicle.

So much hate before even arriving at the factory.

heavily subsidized Tesla Motors

the nattily dressed design chief Franz von Holzhausen said

So if anyone does have the heebie-jeebies, it's not over styling but the the half-billion dollars in federal loans, state tax breaks, and bargain-priced factory space that Tesla has obtained. This is particularly true given the fact that Solyndra, the bankruptsolar-energy company that got even more DOE money, is found just two miles away.

what Tesla is doing is very expensive as well as being slightly impudent,

a retail strategy that lands somewhere between the Hare Krishnas' panhandling in airports and the Snap-on​

truck

heading for a bachelor party.

Starry-eyed at the prospect of being the first Model S owners in their chapters of the Sierra Club,

Will the Model S do anything to change the perception that electric cars are playthings for slimousine liberals

A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool," William Shakespeare wrote. On which side would Musk place himself?​

The nothing to do with cars and everything about Ronald's politics. Why would Automobile magazine allow this?

​

But further impressions of this formidable​

automobile

can only be returned after a longer test.​

​

Good luck with that...
​

 

[smoothoperator]

Given the 10 and 30 minute reviews are quite positive for the Model S is there a comparison to early Fisker reviews?

I only remember "it's pretty good for a hybrid" type drive reviews. Not, "I want one"

http://www.windingroad.com/articles/reviews/driven-2012-fisker-karma/

Review for the Model S:

http://www.windingroad.com/articles/reviews/driven-2012-tesla-model-s/

Seems like they feel that the Model S handling is not very sporty and offers little feedback. In the Fisker review they claim the handling is equal to that of a Panamera Turbo & Quattroporte GTS (pretty high praise). First review I have seen where the Model S is compared to Lexus.

 

[AnOutsider]

I'm going to need to get behind the wheel of another karma. I did not feel that at all in the one I drove.

 

[SoCalGuy]

It would be great if more reviewers would compare the two. I personally hope I get to do a test drive of the Model S before month's end. Fingers crossed!

 

[PeterSZ]

I testdrove the Karma. It made me decide to wait for the S. As simple as that. The Karma is a phase which should have been skipped.

 

[vfx]

I've driven both now.

No comparison at all. The Fisker whelmed me. The S is more than expected.

The Fisker should be called the "Heavy Volt"

 

[SoCalGuy]

I've driven both now.

No comparison at all. The Fisker whelmed me. The S is more than expected.

The Fisker should be called the "Heavy Volt"

Care to elaborate? Curious on your specific impressions. Thanks in advance.

 

[smoothoperator]

I've driven both now.

No comparison at all. The Fisker whelmed me. The S is more than expected.

The Fisker should be called the "Heavy Volt"

Really? I felt that the Model S' steering was far less "communicative" than the Karma I drove. The steering feel in the Model S is not as good as the Karma IMO. With all the videos Tesla released with regards to this being the best car in the world, I was surprised they muted steering feel so greatly. In your test drive, did you feel that the steering feel in the Model S was better than the Karma?

 

[Mycroft]

Really? I felt that the Model S' steering was far less "communicative" than the Karma I drove. The steering feel in the Model S is not as good as the Karma IMO. With all the videos Tesla released with regards to this being the best car in the world, I was surprised they muted steering feel so greatly. In your test drive, did you feel that the steering feel in the Model S was better than the Karma?

The steering response is adjustable in the Model S, so it's possible yours wasn't set for the tighter sport settings.

 

[AnOutsider]

I hope to get an unbiased opinion next Friday. After the NY test drive event, I hope to take my COO to Fisker in paramus to do a back to back drive, see what he thinks.

 

[DrComputer]

I went with Eric (VFX) yesterday to the Santa Monica Fisker store and we both drove the Karma. I agree with him but I would call it the "bloated Volt". Although the interior materials were more luxurious than the S, the cramped rear seat and lack of both front and rear headroom were negatives. There is also very little center storage (because of the battery tunnel).

As for actual driving, it was no comparison to the S. Their version of creep (both forward and reverse) was very jerky. The salesman was very up front about the issues and didn't try to deny that was a problem. In electric only mode it was quiet but very slow. If you put it inHill 2 mode, the highest regen mode, it still has less regen than the S. Click it over into Sport mode and the engine comes on to give you more power. I had read reviews about the engine being noisy but I found it rather quiet until you floored it then you could hear some turbo whine (but not offensive). Even in Sport mode it was FAR less responsivethan the S. It seemed to take a big breath before engaging the electric motors almost like an ICE having to downshift. The steering was very light and rather slow. Eric did some quick lane change moves and the Karma responded worse than a Toyota Camry would.

As for the user interface, there is no comparison between the two. The Karma looks like an old Atari 2600 whereas the S is like a new iPad. The screen was so washed out in the sun I couldn't even read it during the test drive. It would take seconds to switch between screens and they were horribly laid out. We even killed the backupcamera by switching from reverse to drive and then back to reverse again (to back into a spot). The salesman said we would have to turn off the car for two minutes for the system to "reboot", which we did, and then it worked again. Sorry, that is just unacceptable.

Overall I would say the Karma is a pretty car from afar but for $110K it is a poor value for the dollar and a bad overall package. Slow, unresponsive, hard to get in or out of, only charges at 16A max, horrible user interface and sloppy driving characteristics. I have no grudge against Fisker and I hope they (and every other electric car company) succeed. But after driving both the S and the Karma I would never buy one nor let any of my friends or family get one. The S is such a better car for less money. If someone really wants a "range extended" EV get a Volt. It’s a much better value and better overall package.

 

[doug]

I went with Eric (VFX) yesterday to the Santa Monica Fisker store and we both drove the Karma.

Did you find out if the car you drove had the latest software update (version 6.28)?

Their version of creep (both forward and reverse) was very jerky.

Jerky in what way? This may be due to a limitation of the Chinese permanent magnet motors and inverters their using. The motors do not provide constant torque (it pulses with the inverters) and would likely be more noticeable at low speed. In fact the only technical patent I've seen from Fisker (the rest were design patents to do with styling) was a control scheme to pulse the two inverters out of phase with each other. Those two inverters separately drive two motors that are joined at the transaxle. Driving them out of phase maybe help smooth the torque ripples at the wheels.

 

[roblab]

Did you find out if the car you drove had the latest software update (version 6.28)?


Jerky in what way? This may be due to a limitation of the Chinese permanent magnet motors and inverters their using. The motors do not provide constant torque (it pulses with the inverters) and would likely be more noticeable at low speed. In fact the only technical patent I've seen from Fisker (the rest were design patents to do with styling) was a control scheme to pulse the two inverters out of phase with each other. Those two inverters separately drive two motors that are joined at the transaxle. Driving them out of phase maybe help smooth the torque ripples at the wheels.

The old RAV4EVs had "cogging", very noticeable at low speed, and I didn't know where it came from. Thanks.

 

[DrComputer]

Did you find out if the car you drove had the latest software update (version 6.28)?

Jerky in what way? This may be due to a limitation of the Chinese permanent magnet motors and inverters their using. The motors do not provide constant torque (it pulses with the inverters) and would likely be more noticeable at low speed. In fact the only technical patent I've seen from Fisker (the rest were design patents to do with styling) was a control scheme to pulse the two inverters out of phase with each other. Those two inverters separately drive two motors that are joined at the transaxle. Driving them out of phase maybe help smooth the torque ripples at the wheels.

No, we didn't check the software release. I agree that the "jerky" feeling was probably the pulsing of the inverters. It was more noticeable when using creep to go in reverse. It almost made the car feel like something was wrong. Not only could you feel it but it made a strange sound too.

 

[pharma5]

In fact the only technical patent I've seen from Fisker (the rest were design patents to do with styling) was a control scheme to pulse the two inverters out of phase with each other.

Slightly OT, but just emphasize the point, a quick comparison of patents in the U.S.:

For Fisker, there are 12 issued patents, all for design (aesthetics). They have 10 utility (functional) applications pending., none issued. Don't believe any of those applications have started the examination process yet, since all 10 have just been published as applications in 2012.

For Tesla, there are 75 issued patents, 2 of which are design and 73 utility. They show 122 published applications, in various stages of exam.

 

[pharma5]

View attachment US20120133227.pdf

Fisker application re: torque ripple :wink:

 

[smoothoperator]

The steering response is adjustable in the Model S, so it's possible yours wasn't set for the tighter sport settings.

not talking about effort to turn the steering wheel but road feel from the steering...all the adjustments do is make it harder or easier to turn the steering wheel.

 

[smoothoperator]

The steering was very light and rather slow. Eric did some quick lane change moves and the Karma responded worse than a Toyota Camry would.

Please elaborate.... Also what did you think about the road feel?

 

[stopcrazypp]

not talking about effort to turn the steering wheel but road feel from the steering...all the adjustments do is make it harder or easier to turn the steering wheel.

The Fisker uses hydraulic steering, the Model S electronic steering. That's probably why the Model S provides less steering feedback (but also why it's adjustable; the feedback might actually be adjustable too, although that doesn't appear to be the case for the Model S).

As for which one is more "sporty," I'm not sure what that refers to. This may be a combination of steering feel (what you are referring to) and the car handling dynamics (what Eric/VFX seems to be referring to).

I'll use an extreme example. You can have a car with full hydraulic or no power steering that provides the best steering feedback in the world. But if the car handles like a boat or understeers like a pig, it's still not "sporty".