Soooo... basically, it's all about the looks
Its never about the looks that is why the Coda is selling like hotcakes
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Karma -vs- Model S
- Thread starter doug
- Start date
Its never about the looks that is why the Coda is selling like hotcakes
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The Coda has its own problems (the EPA efficiency is horrible, most of the parts content is from China, the body is an outdated design from the early 90s, which doesn't mean good things for crash safety). If it's a excellent car, with so-so looks, then that would be different. The Leaf is selling fine despite a lot of people thinking it looks ugly (the headlights in particular).
Well, sarcasm aside, SoCalGuy basically just said he wanted a Model S in a Karma body (with perhaps a range extender). So, if that's the case, it would seem that the biggest thing the Karma has going for it over the S is its looks.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The Prius actually is 0.25 now. Ferrari's California is actually the most aerodynamic at 0.32. 0.31 isn't horrible, but it's middling (same as a 7 series, an Avalon and bunch of 90s economy cars).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient
To be clear, my main beef with the S is the lack of a range extender and secondly it's looks. If it had even a small range extender (eg a 125hp one that gave it enough juice to move, albeit with much slower acceleration in 'range extend' mode) I would have happily picked up the S rather than the Karma (even with the more matronly physique). Range anxiety was the biggest factor for me in picking the Karma over the S, and the second consideration was the styling. The Karma is a decent EV up to 40-42 miles, which is fine for most people's daily drive. For me, this purchase is an indulgent one for weekending (I split my time between NYC and LA) and I need my car to conform to my lifestyle and not the other way around. Driving is about freedom, that impulsive trip to the beach/mountains/casino. It's no fun having to pre-plan your route to account for charging stations etc. Again, your mileage may vary.
If they had done that, I wouldn't be buying it. And probably wouldn't be buying any car in 2012. Nobody else has a true EV that I've found compelling. If Model S became another Volt ("an electric...psyche! a hybrid"), I wouldn't be buying it.
Very true it is no fun having to kill a few hours (in order to pick up a few hours to charge) when all you really want to do is get to your destination. Is the Karma your only car? The Karma has killer looks, I just wish it had double the range.
It is my only car - I keep it in LA. Prior to the Karma, I had been using family cars (M5, Lexus ES, Audi Q5s). I was a reservation holder for the Aptera and the Fisker because I thought the tech in both was cool and the looks on the Karma were stunning. When I saw the Karma in person, I plunked down a deposit on the spot (this was when they advertised 100mpg).
Also to the other poster who said if the S had a range extended he wouldn't buy one, they could very easily make that an option ala Aptera 2/2e and the BMW i.
Again for me, driving is more than utilitarian- it's emotional. So while, as one Buzzer put it, the S is the Swiss army knife, the Karma is the samurai's sword
If Elon says the designs were crap them quite possibly it went in the direction of "not generic" that is it possibly had swoops and curves that "would offend". Counter to that postulation, Martin Eberhard said to someone that HF's design looked pretty much like the S ---but that was a loooong time ago.
Funny when I read that it makes Henrik sound like a fool for going with anything but a pure EV. Of course he might have lost the suit Tesla brought against him if he had stolen IP that blatantly.
Not easily at all. Emissions and all of the hoopla that goes with that is crazy expensive to do in house, and if you outsource, you end up with Fiskers problems. Tesla would be history (kind of like fisker will be)if they included an ICE generator.
Adding a internal combustion engine with Catalytic converter and carrying gasoline have so much more goverment regulations as to be the turtle carrying the scorpion. Your examples are a concept and a failure? Tesla flirted with a engine backup for about 6 months or so. (more or less offhand comments from CEO and Elon) Cooler heads probaly prevailed when they saw how much harder it would be.
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Tesla considered a range extender for the Model S way back in early 2008 (when it was still called the "Whitestar" and around the time when the Volt was a big hit as a concept car and Fisker announced the Karma). Elon was reluctant all the way, but some executives back then liked the idea.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-9830222-54.html?tag=mncol;txt
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-9863202-54.html
They ditched it in less than a year for reasons explained well in the article below (although the Tesla vs Fisker lawsuit probably also played a good part). Basically for a range extended version they would need to use less energy dense cells like the A123 cells used by the Karma and it would increase weight, cost, and complexity for the same range (compared to just adding more batteries), something that proves true when you compare the Model S with the Karma.
http://www.greentechmedia.com/green-light/post/tesla-kills-its-gas-electric-hybrid-586/
Very good read - thanks for the link! Telling that Musk says it's easier to do pure EVs than EREVs. Something just keeps nagging at me thinking that someone will come up with a much more efficient, smaller range extender, maybe like the one being developed by Bladon Jets!
Thanks for finding these. Perfect for this thread.
Interesting historic points. They were calling the S "whitestar" a name we outsiders came up with that Elon did not like.
Model S was only going to be 200 miles and due in 2009.
That was back when the Volt had style.
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To over simplify making the Bluestar will be much less costly than any gasoline car and possibly the Atlantic.
They have the battery tech and just need to put it in a different floor box. same with scaling down the motor and gearbox. They have the software to run the car. just dial it in to the new from factor. The 17 in screen just gets scaled down. No physical buttons to sculpt mold and make switches for.
easy peasy.
They have the battery tech and just need to put it in a different floor box. same with scaling down the motor and gearbox. They have the software to run the car. just dial it in to the new from factor. The 17 in screen just gets scaled down. No physical buttons to sculpt mold and make switches for.
easy peasy.
I don't know if this video was already posted, but I found this fairly exhaustive Karma owner review on Youtube this AM:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnYuO0bGSTc&feature=related
Many of the software issues may have been fixed since this was filmed, but in my case, this definitively confirms that the S is the car for me, and not the Karma...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnYuO0bGSTc&feature=related
Many of the software issues may have been fixed since this was filmed, but in my case, this definitively confirms that the S is the car for me, and not the Karma...
Yep, this video was done by Brian, a longtime FiskerBuzzer and I think was pretty well covered here and on the FiskerBuzz site. I actually welcomed much of Brian's critique, but what was clear from his various posts and his review was that many of the issues he was encountering were car-specific, i.e. he had a lemon and should have asked for a new Karma. There was another guy on the forum from Atlanta who got a very early Karma and had many issues similar to Brian's, got a new Karma, and has been relatively happy ever since.
The software has improved, but still nothing like the Model S' infotainment screen. Good news is that 70-80% of those problems can be fixed in future software updates. Having had my Karma for 6 months now, its never left me stranded or had any unusual performance/mechanical issues. I've had occasional navigation screens drop out, some lost bluetooth connections to my phone, lost radio presets etc, but everything else works like a champ. Bottom line: all new cars have issues, and the first batch of cars may have more lemons that later, and that's to be expected.
This is true, and people forget all the problems that Tesla had with the early Roadster (which were more significant in many ways than the Karma's problems). Heck Tesla shipped early Roadster's with a known defective 2 speed transmission.
I'd love to see him (re-)review of a non-lemon Karma. Perhaps you guys (Karma folk) can coordinate that somehow.
I was/am interested in Fisker reviews more from the standpoint of potential concerns with my S, less from the standpoint of choosing between S and Karma. [For me, electric-only is requirement #1 in this round of vehicle purchase.]
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