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Long-Term Fundamentals of Tesla Motors (TSLA)

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Tesla ignores reliability problems as measured by CR at its peril.
Apparantly they already have, giving near certain indication of future behavior as well. I don’t believe Tesla has or will ever use CR to reflect back internal adjustments. I think instead, they will (appropriately IMO) use a methodology commensurate with their product (never measured by an agency like CR) using real time data collected directly by them.

Given your feelings this puts them in peril, investment adjustments may be warranted.
I believe CR to be largely a non issue positively or negatively and CR ratings, positively or negatively, isn’t capable of putting Tesla in peril, and will never be a source of respected feedback and information. I will also invest on that belief, accordingly...
 
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Apparantly they already have, giving near certain indication of future behavior as well. I don’t believe Tesla has or will ever use CR to reflect back internal adjustments. I think instead, they will (appropriately IMO) use a methodology commensurate with their product (never measured by an agency like CR) using real time data collected directly by them.

Given your feelings this puts them in peril, investment adjustments may be warranted.
I believe CR to be largely a non issue positively or negatively and CR ratings, positively or negatively, isn’t capable of putting Tesla in peril, and will never be a source of respected feedback and information. I will also invest on that belief, accordingly...

If Model 3 ratings equal Model X ratings it will be an issue for demand at some point in the future.

Given Tesla response and the defensive attacks by TMC members it is an issue that will affect Tesla.

If not so many defensive responses on a non-issue.
 
Approximately a quarter of Tesla buyers in Canada/USA care about CR ratings and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future whatever Telsa management,investors or fans think.

GM,Ford, and FCA employees,investors,and fans have hated on CR for over 30 years claiming a pro Japanese bias as their US/Canada market share have been haved.

CR influences the taste makers. The people that really care and recommend cars to friends and family. Tesla ignores reliability problems as measured by CR at its peril.


If Model 3 ratings equal Model X ratings it will be an issue for demand at some point in the future.

Given Tesla response and the defensive attacks by TMC members it is an issue that will affect Tesla..

If not so many defensive responses on a non-issue.
In the other thread you reply to my statement that their reliability results mean less because they don't factor in customer satisfaction by stating that those are separate categories.

The point I was trying to make is that with Tesla at least that's misleading, largely because they are not attempting to make a profit from service. If you have a problem that Tesla fixes for free vs another companies dealer making you feel ripped off that's entirely relevant when you are trying to determine the effects of reliability on customer satisfaction.

You also said that they have addressed the issues of EV's vs ICE by weighting their results. How do they weight the fact that EV's don't require tuneups or oil changes (for two examples)? I met someone who bought an MX and in the conversation I told him that Tesla didn't make a profit on maintenance. He said "what maintenance"?

Entirely relevant and not weighted properly. Just because people pay attention to their ratings doesn't mean that they are relevant and I believe people are more influenced by their friends satisfaction or lack of satisfaction than CR's ratings.

I agree with you that if the M3 has reliability ratings similar to the MX that Tesla has a problem but:
1. I'm not convinced that will cause a problem with demand.

2. The odds of that actually happening are pretty close to zero in my opinion.

OTOH the fact that an MX owner said "what maintenance?", demonstrates (proves?) the fact that for Tesla CR's reliability ratings are pretty useless.

The responses on this forum are more an indication that your posts are exaggerating the impact of CR's ratings on Tesla, not that it's a big issue.

Tesla's response is not an indication that this is a potential problem for them. It's probably an indication that they are getting tired of the constant attacks and that caused them to overreact in this instance.
 
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If Model 3 ratings equal Model X ratings it will be an issue for demand at some point in the future.

Given Tesla response and the defensive attacks by TMC members it is an issue that will affect Tesla.

If not so many defensive responses on a non-issue.
Rob, those aren’t unfair points, but talk past the discussion in my view.
I generally concur with Mitch comments above (obviously from my previous posts).
But you’ve supported a good conversation of countering views and that as usual is appreciated
Peace ✌️
 
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As a long term investor, what excited me the most was not the semi, pick up, or roadster exactly, but the implications that the stats on these vehicles have for huge changes in battery tech for Tesla in the next couple years.

1) A semi that can gain 400 miles of range in 1/2 hr on a mega charger;
2) A 1 million mile warranty on the semi;
3) A new Roadster supercar that can go 0-60 in 1.9 sec while carrying 200 kWh battery pack that gives it 620 miles of range;
4) The new Roadster costs less than twice the Model S P100D while carrying twice as much battery capacity.

This means in a mere 2 years Tesla will have batteries that are:
1) super fast charging;
2) durable;
3) have a much greater energy density;
and 4) not be crazy expensive as compared to today's batteries costs.

A significantly faster charging, durable, higher density battery which does not cost a lot more should excite any long term investor in TSLA. With these batteries I see the last barriers to BEVs evaporating except maybe manufacturing enough for demand.
 
As a long term investor, what excited me the most was not the semi, pick up, or roadster exactly, but the implications that the stats on these vehicles have for huge changes in battery tech for Tesla in the next couple years.

1) A semi that can gain 400 miles of range in 1/2 hr on a mega charger;
2) A 1 million mile warranty on the semi;
3) A new Roadster supercar that can go 0-60 in 1.9 sec while carrying 200 kWh battery pack that gives it 620 miles of range;
4) The new Roadster costs less than twice the Model S P100D while carrying twice as much battery capacity.

This means in a mere 2 years Tesla will have batteries that are:
1) super fast charging;
2) durable;
3) have a much greater energy density;
and 4) not be crazy expensive as compared to today's batteries costs.

A significantly faster charging, durable, higher density battery which does not cost a lot more should excite any long term investor in TSLA. With these batteries I see the last barriers to BEVs evaporating except maybe manufacturing enough for demand.
Can't agree more.

I believe the battery-tech-snowball has been rolling down the hill since the first Model S, it's unstoppable now. Like frogs in boiling water, people don't realize until ICE's are completely redundant.
 
As a long term investor, what excited me the most was not the semi, pick up, or roadster exactly, but the implications that the stats on these vehicles have for huge changes in battery tech for Tesla in the next couple years.

1) A semi that can gain 400 miles of range in 1/2 hr on a mega charger;
2) A 1 million mile warranty on the semi;
3) A new Roadster supercar that can go 0-60 in 1.9 sec while carrying 200 kWh battery pack that gives it 620 miles of range;
4) The new Roadster costs less than twice the Model S P100D while carrying twice as much battery capacity.
This means in a mere 2 years Tesla will have batteries that are:
1) super fast charging;
2) durable;
3) have a much greater energy density;
and 4) not be crazy expensive as compared to today's batteries costs.

A significantly faster charging, durable, higher density battery which does not cost a lot more should excite any long term investor in TSLA.
With these batteries I see the last barriers to BEVs evaporating except maybe manufacturing enough for demand.
Your conclusions in bold are completely unrelated to your list of facts.

The semi would work with current batteries. The semi is slated to charge at about the same c-rate as current batteries. The fact that it accepts a higher charge rate is meaningless because the charge rate is proportional to the size of the pack.


The Roadster prototypes are using current battery technology so any conclusions about future batteries based on the Roadster are obviously invalid. Fred at electrek believes with good reasons that the Roadster is using a double layer of current batteries.

Elon and JB have indicated that they are working with the Goodenaugh batteries. So are over fifty other battery companies . If anything those cells (which have all of the advantages that you mentioned) will have the effect of massively increasing Tesla’s competition. All of the oem’s are waiting for the cost of batteries to drop enough so that EVs are cheaper than ICE’s. Elon’s strategy is to reduce the cost of the current batteries enough to be competitive. IMO the other oem’s are going to be in for a surprise since they believe that as soon as they can obtain cells at an affordable price that they will be competitive with Tesla. But that will at least get them to try.
 
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Your conclusions in bold are completely unrelated to your list of facts.

The semi would work with current batteries. The semi is slated to charge at about the same c-rate as current batteries. The fact that it accepts a higher charge rate is meaningless because the charge rate is proportional to the size of the pack.


The Roadster prototypes are using current battery technology so any conclusions about future batteries based on the Roadster are obviously invalid. Fred at electrek believes with good reasons that the Roadster is using a double layer of current batteries.

Elon and JB have indicated that they are working with the Goodenaugh batteries. So are over fifty other battery companies . If anything those cells (which have all of the advantages that you mentioned) will have the effect of massively increasing Tesla’s competition. All of the oem’s are waiting for the cost of batteries to drop enough so that EVs are cheaper than ICE’s. Elon’s strategy is to reduce the cost of the current batteries enough to be competitive. IMO the other oem’s are going to be in for a surprise since they believe that as soon as they can obtain cells at an affordable price that they will be competitive with Tesla. But that will at least get them to try.

I may have overstated things in my excitement, but I would also guess things are not as simple as you state them either. I still appreciate the knowledge you bring. It appears now that Fred Lambert from electrek also believes there are some major changes in Tesla/Panasonic batteries afoot:

"In my opinion, this is all hinting at a major battery breakthrough for cost and energy density that is enabling those new electric vehicles."
 
I may have overstated things in my excitement, but I would also guess things are not as simple as you state them either. I still appreciate the knowledge you bring. It appears now that Fred Lambert from electrek also believes there are some major changes in Tesla/Panasonic batteries afoot:

"In my opinion, this is all hinting at a major battery breakthrough for cost and energy density that is enabling those new electric vehicles."
Fred’s reasoning is incorrect.
 
Solid state batteries are coming, probably with mass production beginning in the early to mid-2020s. A lot of mainstream car makers are hanging back on committing to EVs because they are afraid to invest too heavily in li-ion batteries when something much better will be along in a few years.

One reason the pace of innovation in the automotive industry is so slow is the long term thinking these companies do. Heavy industry involves a lot of capital investment and it's a very expensive mistake to sink a lot of money into a technology that changes suddenly. That's been the norm in the electronics industry, but the investment in production equipment hasn't been a major factor in technology evolving. Changing the tech going into some device has more capital invested in the R&D than production. The production equipment doesn't have to change much for a new tech most of the time.

Tesla is rooted in that Silicon Valley culture and the car companies are banking on Tesla making a major screw up going all in on a technology that will be obsolete and they won't have the money to retool. Meanwhile they wait on the sidelines until the dust settles and then jump in when the technology has stabilized. It's a strategy that has some merit, but I suspect Tesla has built the expectation of a major shift in battery tech into their plans. The problem is nobody knows for sure when solid state batteries will be ready for mass production, nor does anyone know which of the competing technologies will become the transport chemistry of the future, if any.

Tesla is being very quiet about the new battery tech coming down the pike, but I'm sure they are quietly doing tons of their own research and there is some possibility they are ahead of the publicly known leaders. They may be planning on the semi and Roadster to have new tech batteries early in their production life, but I also believe they are fully planning to introduce these cars with the same cells currently used in the Model 3.

In the case of the semi, they will be able to double the range with introduction of new cells and with the Roadster, they will be able to introduce a new roomier cabin or added cargo space with the same range and pack size. If the design team know about how much space will be saved with the new cells, they can design in the capability to resize if the battery pack shrinks.
 
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Solid state batteries are coming, probably with mass production beginning in the early to mid-2020s. A lot of mainstream car makers are hanging back on committing to EVs because they are afraid to invest too heavily in li-ion batteries when something much better will be along in a few years.

.
Why do you believe SS Batteries are so close to mass production?
 
Solid state batteries are coming, probably with mass production beginning in the early to mid-2020s. A lot of mainstream car makers are hanging back on committing to EVs because they are afraid to invest too heavily in li-ion batteries when something much better will be along in a few years.
JB said (pretty much) that they are currently working with the Goodenaugh battery technology .
One reason the pace of innovation in the automotive industry is so slow is the long term thinking these companies do. Heavy industry involves a lot of capital investment and it's a very expensive mistake to sink a lot of money into a technology that changes suddenly. That's been the norm in the electronics industry, but the investment in production equipment hasn't been a major factor in technology evolving. Changing the tech going into some device has more capital invested in the R&D than production. The production equipment doesn't have to change much for a new tech most of the time.
I think that the main reasons for their slowness is that they can’t figure out how to build cars profitablely with the current batteries. They are waiting for something that is affordable. Elon has figured out how to make affordable batteries with current cell technology. What the people who think that the competition is a threat to Tesla don’t seem to understand is that Tesla will also be able to produce packs using more affordable cells for less than their competition.
Tesla is rooted in that Silicon Valley culture and the car companies are banking on Tesla making a major screw up going all in on a technology that will be obsolete and they won't have the money to retool. Meanwhile they wait on the sidelines until the dust settles and then jump in when the technology has stabilized. It's a strategy that has some merit, but I suspect Tesla has built the expectation of a major shift in battery tech into their plans. The problem is nobody knows for sure when solid state batteries will be ready for mass production, nor does anyone know which of the competing technologies will become the transport chemistry of the future, if any.
I’m trying to find out how much their production equipment would need to charge to handle the Goodenaugh cells.
Tesla is being very quiet about the new battery tech coming down the pike, but I'm sure they are quietly doing tons of their own research and there is some possibility they are ahead of the publicly known leaders. They may be planning on the semi and Roadster to have new tech batteries early in their production life, but I also believe they are fully planning to introduce these cars with the same cells currently used in the Model 3.
They are prepared to do that. 2019 would be an extremely aggressive schedule for introducing new cells.

They need to be quiet. Remember when there were a lot of incorrect opinions about the 2170’s being a huge breakthrough snd people were talking about waiting for the new batteries to order their cars?
 
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Why do you believe SS Batteries are so close to mass production?

There are working prototypes in labs now and as @30seconds posted, Toyota thought it had a production ready solid state tech. The 2022 is still the "early" 2020s and that's 4-5 years away. Look at where the EV world was 5 years ago, the Model S had just been introduced and it had around 240 miles of range on an 85 KWh battery. Now the range of the top model is close to 100 miles longer.

Mid-2020s would be 8 years or so, which would be a longer time span than just about every EV model on the road today.

JB said (pretty much) that they are currently working with the Goodenaugh battery technology .

Goodenough is just one of the solid state batteries in labs now. I don't know the specifics of the different chemistries, but Goodenough's chemistry much be the most promising for cars if everyone is looking at them.

I think that the main reasons for their slowness is that they can’t figure out how to build cars profitablely with the current batteries. They are waiting for something that is affordable. Elon has figured out how to make affordable batteries with current cell technology. What the people who think that the competition is a threat to Tesla don’t seem to understand is that Tesla will also be able to produce packs using more affordable cells for less than their competition.

The various articles predicting Tesla's demise when the mainstream car makers start making EVs en masse don't get that anything the mainstream car makers will do, Tesla will do at the same time if not before they do it.

I’m trying to find out how much their production equipment would need to charge to handle the Goodenaugh cells.

Current li-ion cells are very complex to manufacture and require some sophisticated equipment to do right. A lot of the li-ion cells from China are assembled by hand and they usually don't last very long because the tolerances are way off. Parts of the cells also need to be cured which takes time.

From what little I've seen about the solid state chemistries in the labs today, the cells should be much easier to make. That will probably mean the GF can crank out a tremendously larger volume of SS cells than the current cells because they can produce more cells per sq ft of factory floor per day and the cells will take less time per cell to make.

I'm sure Tesla was thinking ahead when they designed the GF and while they may not know exactly what needs to be done to manufacture the next chemistry, they probably are thinking about the details.

They are prepared to do that. 2019 would be an extremely aggressive schedule for introducing new cells.

They need to be quiet. Remember when there were a lot of incorrect opinions about the 2170’s being a huge breakthrough snd people were talking about waiting for the new batteries to order their cars?

They don't want to Osborne current production on the hopes something is coming soon that in reality will take years to reach production cars. I strongly doubt solid state cells will be ready for full production by 2019. They might be doing limited production for test vehicles by 2020 or 2021, but that would be really pushing the time table to the maximum.
 
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[QUOTE="wdolson, post: 2427821, member: 37864”]
Goodenough is just one of the solid state batteries in labs now. I don't know the specifics of the different chemistries, but Goodenough's chemistry much be the most promising for cars if everyone is looking at them.

The various articles predicting Tesla's demise when the mainstream car makers start making EVs en masse don't get that anything the mainstream car makers will do, Tesla will do at the same time if not before they do it.
[/Quote]
I’m not sure that Tesla will be first (I think that the odds are good). But I’m sure that Tesla will do it for less money and at a bigger scale.