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Long-Term Fundamentals of Tesla Motors (TSLA)

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Hard to say what their plan is. I have read that the Saudi government has been investing in long term infrastructure for some time. The oil running low isn't a great thing for their economy, but I think they have been planning for it.

On the other hand, they will want to recover as much of the oil as they can.

I think their most likely play is to invest in secondary recovery while investing in the future. Doing an IPO with Aramco might be a play to sell out at the top and milk as much as they can out of the remaining oil. I think it's likely the investors will be left holding the bag in the end.

Another thought is that Aramco IPO is a way to co-opt buyers to continue buying.

If China for example, was to take a sizable stake in Aramco, wouldn’t it be in China’s interest to continue to buy oil and potentially be a booster for oil as well? Like owning shares of TSLA may prompt one to consider buying more Tesla cars & products and promote their products to friends and acquaintances—not that would ever be any motivation for me ;).

It may be a way for Aramco to improve public relations in a way, now that there is so much more competition, and they may be peaking in their capacity.
 
Another thought is that Aramco IPO is a way to co-opt buyers to continue buying.

If China for example, was to take a sizable stake in Aramco, wouldn’t it be in China’s interest to continue to buy oil and potentially be a booster for oil as well? Like owning shares of TSLA may prompt one to consider buying more Tesla cars & products and promote their products to friends and acquaintances—not that would ever be any motivation for me ;).

It may be a way for Aramco to improve public relations in a way, now that there is so much more competition, and they may be peaking in their capacity.

Oil is a different thing from other products. For the medium term oil companies and oil producing countries have little to worry about. Even an aggressive shift towards electric transportation doesn't put a serious threat to their business for decades. A move towards electrics hurt oil exploration companies, but the oil companies themselves would be content to keep pumping out what's already developed. Oil exploration is very expensive and they are happy to not have to do that. So if the demand is shrinking, as long as it doesn't fall off a cliff, they are happy for the next 30 years at least.

The oil companies know that even with an aggressive battery factory building program, there will not be enough batteries to make enough long range EVs until close to mid-century. And there are some applications that are going to be difficult to solve such as air travel and ocean going ships. Neither of those applications can really be solved adequately with the battery tech we have now. Electrifying cars and, as Tesla has just proven, electrifying trucks is doable with the current technology, the problem there is scalability. Electrifying planes and ships requires new technology we don't have right now.

There is also the single biggest user of oil on the planet: the US Defense Department. They are looking at some EV technologies, but they will continue to need a lot of oil for decades to come. They have a lot of oil thirsty planes and ships, even if they electrify most ground vehicles. And then there is the issue of where to get the energy to refuel ground vehicles in primitive conditions.

The oil market is changing and life might get more difficult for oil drillers and exploration people, but the oil producers are fat dumb and happy for now.
 
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I think I wrote a year or so back on the Saudi Want Out thread that I have a friend who is now a retired Geophysicist who spent his entire working life in the oil business. He said a few years ago the moves the Saudis were making telegraphed that the easy and cheap to produce oil was running out. The Saudis were quietly beginning secondary recovery programs to get the remaining oil out.

Oh, that's *very* interesting. That actually changes my analysis a lot. Thanks.

When Texas had to change to secondary recovery, it vastly raised the floor production price of US oil, from pennies per barrel to, IIRC, something in the $10/bbl range. (That second number could be totally wrong since it's from memory and I don't have a source readily available.) Saudi Arabia took over control of the oil market, *and* the oil price multiplied by 10, permanently (though part of that was monetary effects).

If Saudi Arabia has to change to secondary recovery, it should raises the floor production price of Saudi oil -- to $10 or $20 per barrel, I would guess? I wish I had a better reference for that. If they have to switch to tertiary recovery (not yet!) then upwards of $25/bbl, I believe...

Texas oil was dirt cheap for 7 decades because it was under pressure in salt domes. Getting the oil was easy, drill a hole in the top of the salt dome and install a spigot. Turn the spigot and light sweet crude flows out. When that oil began to run out in the 1970s and the oil companies needed to switch to secondary recovery efforts to get the remaining oil, the cost of that oil went up and the US declined as the world leader in oil production.

Saudi Arabia has been blessed with the same type of Geology and massive amounts of reserves. They have been able to control the world price for oil by adjusting how open the spigot is. With their reserves declining, they are in a similar position the US was in the 1970s. The US was also a massive consumer of oil and Saudi Arabia's domestic consumption is tiny compared to their exports, so there are differences, but with Saudi Arabia declining the next biggest producers rise in power and that list includes some countries that aren't as friendly to the US like Iran, Iraq, and Russia.

So my general model involves:
-- the floor production price of oil (cheapest oil) going up
-- the marginal production price of oil (most expensive oil) going up
-- the price of substitution -- the price of oil at which people switch to alternatives -- going down

Interesting things happen at all stages along this, but perhaps the most fascinating happens when the price of substitution drops below the floor production price, because that is the actual end for oil. Raising the floor production price has a big impact on when that happens.

Unfortunately right now substitution isn't constrained by price but by production capacity of substitutes (!!!). This does mean that the faster Tesla can ramp up, the better -- for years to come they'll be selling into a market where people are falling over themselves to get off of oil. Tesla can make a lot of mistakes and still do well as long as the market remains *unbalanced*: at almost any price point, demand exceeds supply and manufacturers can't keep up with demand. The market will remain unbalanced until production capacity can catch up.
 
Oil is a different thing from other products. For the medium term oil companies and oil producing countries have little to worry about. Even an aggressive shift towards electric transportation doesn't put a serious threat to their business for decades. A move towards electrics hurt oil exploration companies, but the oil companies themselves would be content to keep pumping out what's already developed. Oil exploration is very expensive and they are happy to not have to do that. So if the demand is shrinking, as long as it doesn't fall off a cliff, they are happy for the next 30 years at least.

Fascinatingly, you're wrong about this when it comes to the Integrated Oil Companies. Although oil exploration is very expensive, it's now very unproductive, and they would be much better off if they didn't do any of it, *they insist on doing it anyway*.

Specifically, most of the oil "majors" insist on burning money on oil exploration. It's some kind of psychological problem -- I attribute it to their identity as "oilmen". I've been wondering when they'll get over this psychological hangup, and there seem to be some inroads, but they aren't over it yet.

The National Oil Companies may have less psychological investment in being "oilmen" so they may be willing to abandon exploration much sooner.

The oil companies know that even with an aggressive battery factory building program, there will not be enough batteries to make enough long range EVs until close to mid-century. And there are some applications that are going to be difficult to solve such as air travel and ocean going ships. Neither of those applications can really be solved adequately with the battery tech we have now.
Battery-operated ocean-going ships is solved technology, actually. It's just not yet cheap enough to compete with ultra-cheap high-polluting bunker fuel. (It reduces cargo capacity on the ships.)

Airplanes actually have a technology problem due to the very tight weight issues with airplanes.

There is also the single biggest user of oil on the planet: the US Defense Department. They are looking at some EV technologies, but they will continue to need a lot of oil for decades to come. They have a lot of oil thirsty planes and ships, even if they electrify most ground vehicles. And then there is the issue of where to get the energy to refuel ground vehicles in primitive conditions.

Solar, obviously. Sun is everywhere. Eliminating the fuel supply lines is a humungous benefit. US Army management is often deeply incompetent so I don't know when they'll actually convert wholesale, but it's totally obvious.
 
Oh, that's *very* interesting. That actually changes my analysis a lot. Thanks.

When Texas had to change to secondary recovery, it vastly raised the floor production price of US oil, from pennies per barrel to, IIRC, something in the $10/bbl range. (That second number could be totally wrong since it's from memory and I don't have a source readily available.) Saudi Arabia took over control of the oil market, *and* the oil price multiplied by 10, permanently (though part of that was monetary effects).

If Saudi Arabia has to change to secondary recovery, it should raises the floor production price of Saudi oil -- to $10 or $20 per barrel, I would guess? I wish I had a better reference for that. If they have to switch to tertiary recovery (not yet!) then upwards of $25/bbl, I believe...

California has had staggering oil reserves too. They started secondary recovery before Texas did. My sister was a Geologist at Getty in California when they merged with Texaco. The Texaco people were bragging about how they were cutting edge in secondary recovery in Texas but ended up embarrassed when they found out they were 15 years behind Getty.

So my general model involves:
-- the floor production price of oil (cheapest oil) going up
-- the marginal production price of oil (most expensive oil) going up
-- the price of substitution -- the price of oil at which people switch to alternatives -- going down

Interesting things happen at all stages along this, but perhaps the most fascinating happens when the price of substitution drops below the floor production price, because that is the actual end for oil. Raising the floor production price has a big impact on when that happens.

Unfortunately right now substitution isn't constrained by price but by production capacity of substitutes (!!!). This does mean that the faster Tesla can ramp up, the better -- for years to come they'll be selling into a market where people are falling over themselves to get off of oil. Tesla can make a lot of mistakes and still do well as long as the market remains *unbalanced*: at almost any price point, demand exceeds supply and manufacturers can't keep up with demand. The market will remain unbalanced until production capacity can catch up.

I suspect the price of oil is also a major political football. There was an interview I heard about 15 years ago with an investigative journalist who looked at the price of oil since the 1980s and how the US and its allies have manipulated it for geopolitical purposes. It was kept artificially low until the USSR collapsed. The journalist had interviewed the last Soviet foreign minister and he thought the low price of oil had contributed to the fall of the Soviet Union.

After the USSR fell, the price of oil went up and stayed up until Putin invaded Crimea and then it crashed again. High oil prices hurt China who is dependent on foreign oil. The US also spiked some oil deals China made along the way.

When the glut of oil from the Bakkan started coming online, there was a lot of head scratching about why the price of oil remained high. The supply went way up, but the price remained the same. I predicted it would drop when Russia did something the US didn't like and that is what happened.

Fascinatingly, you're wrong about this when it comes to the Integrated Oil Companies. Although oil exploration is very expensive, it's now very unproductive, and they would be much better off if they didn't do any of it, *they insist on doing it anyway*.

Specifically, most of the oil "majors" insist on burning money on oil exploration. It's some kind of psychological problem -- I attribute it to their identity as "oilmen". I've been wondering when they'll get over this psychological hangup, and there seem to be some inroads, but they aren't over it yet.

The National Oil Companies may have less psychological investment in being "oilmen" so they may be willing to abandon exploration much sooner.

I have a good friend who is a retired exploration Geophysicist and my sister is a production Geologist in California. My father also did work for Union Oil. I've heard a lot about what's going on in the oil biz since around 1980 and a bit before that. Around 1990 the bean counters took over the major oil companies and they closed down a lot of their exploration departments. Exploration and production geoscientists as well as petroleum engineers were getting laid off right and left.

A significant number left the business entirely. My sister got laid off from Mobil and took a job as #2 at a small Geology firm in Bakersfield. The company was started by a friend of hers who had been laid off as a manager at Occidental after they closed his entire department.

Their first projects were working to rehab the Russian oil fields which suffered from decades of mismanagement. It was the only work there was then. They suffered for a few years until the price of oil went back up and then she started raking in the cash.

My friend managed to hang on at Marathon Oil and took early retirement at 55 to take a job at a small Geology firm in Houston.

Both said that the oil companies were farming out a lot of the work developing new oil and rehabbing old ones because they didn't have the staff anymore. They also both said there was such a massive shortage of professionals still in the business they were overwhelmed with work. My friend got burned out because he had to do the work of an entire department of 6 people. The other 5 jobs in his department remained open because there was nobody to fill them.

My sister worked 80 hour weeks for several years and she made a huge wad of money. She tried retiring once, but the phone kept ringing. She quoted astronomical hourly rates and they kept biting.

Since the price of oil dropped, the development work has dried up. My friend retired just ahead of being laid off and my sister said her business had one paying project all last year. She had to lay off all her staff. She had investment income to fall back on, but she's the sort of person who frets about spending her retirement living under a bridge no matter how much money she has.

The oil companies today are most interested in refining and marketing. They farm out most of the exploration and development when the price of oil is high. When the price is low, the support companies starve and the oil companies rake in huge profits.

Battery-operated ocean-going ships is solved technology, actually. It's just not yet cheap enough to compete with ultra-cheap high-polluting bunker fuel. (It reduces cargo capacity on the ships.)

Airplanes actually have a technology problem due to the very tight weight issues with airplanes.

It's a trade off of cargo space vs propulsion space. Back in the 50s there were some ideas about nuclear powered freighters, but the problem was the power plant required more space than a conventional power plant and fuel tanks. The reduced cargo space made it unprofitable.

Current batteries take up about 33X more space per KWH than liquid fuel. Even if you triple the energy efficiency, you still need 11X more space for fuel than with a conventional ship.

Solar, obviously. Sun is everywhere. Eliminating the fuel supply lines is a humungous benefit. US Army management is often deeply incompetent so I don't know when they'll actually convert wholesale, but it's totally obvious.

That's quite possible on permanent bases, but you would need hundreds of acres of solar cells to keep a unit of any size in the field. That is not workable for many reasons: sometimes the sun doesn't shine, that much space taken up with panels would let the enemy know where you are and would make your fuel supply very vulnerable to attack, and you can't ship in more sunlight when you need more energy than you have locally.
 
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Some people in the market are traders, and others are investors. The difference? Time horizon.

Please use this thread to discuss the long-term fundamentals of Tesla Motors, from the POV of an investor.

Good day!

I believe this to be my first post and it is long overdue. Some time ago I learned the value of E=mc^2 and the reason I preface my post with that equation is because it has guided me to infinity and beyond ;). Tesla, from what I see, confuses me in more ways than one. What does that mean? It means that here in Pittsburgh or rather Western PA, I have seen and experienced more than enough to almost give up on my Model X, or as I have named it, Yt-1300f. This is in part by my local sales and service location as well the fleet team I have spoke with over the phone; the other part, well my wife can fill you in on that. Let me step back to E=mc^2. The variable m is what "matters". Since all life is Energy dependent, speed of light is constant (which we can discuss in further detail) and we have speed squared it leaves us with m, or what matters. Foundations matter, one Tesla Sales Office matters, one Model X owner matters. When you have a company turn down an 81 vehicle sale (I was roughly calculating this to be an order > $8,000,000.00 USD) would you be confused? I post this now to one, help me sleep better and think less about some of Tesla's actions and two, hope to share my experience and help at least one other person. What matters to you is only known by those that hear you. If you have had a similar experience could you tell me about it. Thank you!

May you be well,
REM
 
That's quite possible on permanent bases, but you would need hundreds of acres of solar cells to keep a unit of any size in the field.
Essentially, no, you wouldn't. The Army hasn't even taken the most basic energy-efficiency steps yet. An efficient army doesn't need nearly as much power as you might think.
 
The oil companies today are most interested in refining and marketing. They farm out most of the exploration and development when the price of oil is high. When the price is low, the support companies starve and the oil companies rake in huge profits.

Whether they've outsourced exploration and development or not does not change the fact that they keep spending money on it. I looked at this back in 2008, and they were still spending many billions on it. And they weren't finding any profitable fields as a result. Money burned. They've cut back, and cut back more during years of very low oil prices when they had no cash, but they still keep spending on it.

I think Suncor (?) was the first to announce that it was simply ending expenditures on exploration entirely, but that's very unusual.
 
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On the energy front Tesla’s enormous battery in Australia, just weeks old, is already responding to outages in ‘record’ time There is a despairing comment attacking Elon, but over all good PR for energy companies to latch onto. A heads up to Hawaiian Islands to switch over; though I know based on a relative living on the big island they have been moving towards solar energy for some time now. I am hoping Tesla has been helping Puerto Rico more than we are aware.

Hope this sparks solar sales:)
 
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On the energy front Tesla’s enormous battery in Australia, just weeks old, is already responding to outages in ‘record’ time There is a despairing comment attacking Elon, but over all good PR for energy companies to latch onto. A heads up to Hawaiian Islands to switch over; though I know based on a relative living on the big island they have been moving towards solar energy for some time now. I am hoping Tesla has been helping Puerto Rico more than we are aware.

Hope this sparks solar sales:)
The sparks are probably for battery packs, but at least it will shine more spotlight on solar.
 
Solar can easily achieve the 7c/kwh rate, so obviously it's from a place where sun doesn't shine
I mean where did the article get that info, and is it really correct. I have a hard time believing Tesla's cost is currently $1/KWh, unless they are talking about amortizing the site equipment/lease costs with that.... in which case then the direct comparison to a $0.07/KWh rate doesn't make sense either.

On edit: On the chance that was just a "where the sun don't shine" joke, then: lol
 
I mean where did the article get that info, and is it really correct. I have a hard time believing Tesla's cost is currently $1/KWh, unless they are talking about amortizing the site equipment/lease costs with that.... in which case then the direct comparison to a $0.07/KWh rate doesn't make sense either.

On edit: On the chance that was just a "where the sun don't shine" joke, then: lol
Interesting, there was a montana article a couple years ago (I think it was him) amortizing the cost of each charging station and assuming each one cost x million to build and cost xx cents above market rates to power, and voila, it costs Tesla $1/KWh for the super chargers. Would be sad indeed if a reporter for the Washington Post was using data from paid lobbyist against Tesla for data. I'm sure this is not data Tesla would share with a reporter, but they should be able to find more objective resources.
 
Essentially, no, you wouldn't. The Army hasn't even taken the most basic energy-efficiency steps yet. An efficient army doesn't need nearly as much power as you might think.

@neroden I have to agree with your perspective. The corruption within the branches aside, I do know that the army field artillery was testing magnetic charge firing of projectiles; attempting to move away from traditional gunpowder back in the early 1990s when I retired.

My neighbor at the lake house is a full bird (newly promoted colonel) and his comment about self driving cars was “wanting to be able to run the other guy off the road.” I found this odd from a branch becoming more and more dependent on drones (air force). For a pilot he is more of an ostrich:)

I think the air force stands to lead the force towards non fossil fuel dependentencs. The army/ground forces are focused on excessive speed, agility, and leathal fire power on the battlefield. Back in and around 1983 when we fielded the new HEMMT fuel tankers they had bigger bulk carrying capability and extremely high pumping rates compared to our WWII tankers with gravity feed.

Battlefields need to be maneuverable for success. Otherwise it is house to house in a city environment and we have sixteen years of that under our belts now. In an environment like the current police actions (sarcasm from Vietnam era), where fighting on a daily basis is in a sunny environment, and range to and from for patrolling is within range plus fighting; then there is an opportunity for EVs or other alternative fuel source. But, again that requires thinking outside the book:) And it is doubtful anyone is moving forward on this topic; otherwise GM, Ford and the like would be spending mega bucks on battery/alternative fuel powered vehicles and they do not appear to be doing so:-( Toyota is hanging their hat on fusion ~ okay. . .

Background ~ In the sixties/seventies jeeps could run on poor grade fossil fuel and therefore required a very fine screen/wire mesh to screen out contaminates. Problem was that these funnel shaped screens would disappear frequently in support of drug use:-( I still laugh today about my first sergeant asking me, the Chaplains Assistant, which room I wanted to bunk in ~ my choice was with the alcoholics or druggies:) I chose the druggies since they were mellow yellow as opposed to noisy, barfing, and smashing of furniture guys.

Hey, back to the future. When will the military move towards a successful alternative fuel based tank? That requires progressive thinking:)
 
While looking for the cost of supercharging, I came across this Teslarati article from Apr 2013:

Tesla's Supercharger - The Cost of Giving Away Free Energy

I skimmed it since it's long, found some interesting quotes, especially considering this comes Teslarati. Suffice to say that Tesla has been much more aggressive than even Teslarati's bull estimate, they have expanded their 2 year lead on EV, demand is high enough that Tesla doesn't need to even give away free supercharging. My take away, is to never value TSLA only based on what you see on the surface today.

Below are from Teslarati:

"Tesla’s Model S has won prestigious awards and critical acclaim. It’s quiet, clean, nimble, fast and great looking. Customers are lining up to buy it and Tesla has figured out how to make the Model S. But for investors hoping this $35 stock will turn into a $100 stock, there is a huge, seemingly insurmountable problem ahead."

"Tesla has a lead of perhaps two years over mainstream car makers in electric vehicle technology and all they need to do is use that two-year window to establish industry dominance. And right there is the problem for Tesla shareholders. For Tesla to convert their technical edge into auto industry dominance, they will need to make lots of cars. Doing that will require lots of new capital, and if Tesla raises that much capital in the next 2 – 3 years, it will dilute existing shareholders. This may make Tesla fantastically successful, but existing shareholders won’t profit much."

"If you are a great optimist, Tesla might be able to build the 120,000 cars for the US market in 2024 that we assume here without needing to raise significant new capital."

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