M3 HV won’t charge [car bought at auction]

[Wasabi K]

Probably helps to have an eternal power supply and that new battery would only be as support, especially given people apparently have been able to update using the external supply alone, presuming it was powerful enough. Otherwise, as others pointed out, disconnect the new LV battery when not using to limit unnecessary discharge. Also don't dilly dally. Make sure you have everything planned out exactly what you want to do before connecting it, instead of trying to figure things out while the clock is ticking.

Thanks
Yes I’m trying to align all the items so I don’t end up killing the new LV Battery.

Tesla here in NJ doesn’t charge the 16v Batteries. I don’t want to rant here, but I have been to 2 different service centers. One with the car and the geniuses there tell me to dump the car without providing any help what so ever. Very very disappointing customer service (I know most car service centers are same) but this is on another level. They can’t tell me what the issue is for obvious reasons. Only thing they say is to send it to Tesla certified shop.
If I was able to do that before, wouldn’t have I done that already? Anyways
Appreciate it guys.

 

[FatFalcon]

Also I doubt you need a low-voltage battery. Those batteries discharge to the lowest safe level then disconnect themselves to prevent damage. They just need to be 'woken' up with a certain voltage or signal. It's very rare for them to go bad.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Also I doubt you need a low-voltage battery. Those batteries discharge to the lowest safe level then disconnect themselves to prevent damage. They just need to be 'woken' up with a certain voltage or signal. It's very rare for them to go bad.

That doesn't seem to be the case at least for all the YouTube accounts that talk about it. If you leave the battery connected to the car for a long time and the car HV is dead (as is frequently the case for accident cars) the battery seems to eventually kill itself as the BMS doesn't appear to stop all drain of the battery.

 

[Madmolecule]

I would not be that concerned about how much time you have once you hook up your new 16 V battery or your charged existing battery.
I would not run the air conditioning, I really don’t have any idea but I would imagine you probably have eight hours. My 12 V battery only became too low after I had all the doors open for over a week while I was working on it. I replaced it, but if I only disconnected it and charged it, it would’ve saved me purchasing a new battery. I now have a spare one.
I thought by letting my car sleep, and stay plugged in overnight, I had the HV battery fully charged, but it never recharged my LV battery.
I had probably 20 errors associated with it
Once I replaced it, it all went away. I had the reverse voltage fault, where I had briefly shorted it by dropping it wrench on it. I was not able to reset it. Again once I put a fully charged battery, and reset it by unplugging the the plug under the seat, all the errors went away.
It didn’t really make any sense to me, I thought it would charge up or at least try to charge the LV battery, but it did not. I put the fully charged battery in and reset it, it has no problem keeping it charged

 

[stopcrazypp]

I would not be that concerned about how much time you have once you hook up your new 16 V battery or your charged existing battery.
I would not run the air conditioning, I really don’t have any idea but I would imagine you probably have eight hours. My 12 V battery only became too low after I had all the doors open for over a week while I was working on it. I replaced it, but if I only disconnected it and charged it, it would’ve saved me purchasing a new battery. I now have a spare one.
I thought by letting my car sleep, and stay plugged in overnight, I had the HV battery fully charged, but it never recharged my LV battery.
I had probably 20 errors associated with it
Once I replaced it, it all went away. I had the reverse voltage fault, where I had briefly shorted it by dropping it wrench on it. I was not able to reset it. Again once I put a fully charged battery, and reset it by unplugging the the plug under the seat, all the errors went away.
It didn’t really make any sense to me, I thought it would charge up or at least try to charge the LV battery, but it did not. I put the fully charged battery in and reset it, it has no problem keeping it charged

You have a lead acid 12V which has much larger capacity, can easily be charged with any random 12V battery charger and is only $85 from Tesla. None of that applies to the 16V lithium-ion LV battery, so I disagree with your point. The OP already has one dead 16V that he couldn't revive. I should note the 16V battery Tesla uses is NOT an LFP battery that is commonly used as drop in replacements for 12V lead acid.

 

[Wasabi K]

I have managed to locate the video someone well versed in Electronics and specially in the new battery architecture. Recharging them manually is not officially recommended or supported by design. Please see the link below. Once the new 16v batteries pass the low charge threshold, they need to be replaced. (Yes corporate greed and Giant companies becoming greedy etc.) Why would they make anything easier for people to work on. Make it impossible so they have no choice but to bring it to them haha. Perfect example used to be Apple.

 

[Madmolecule]

You have a lead acid 12V which has much larger capacity, can easily be charged with any random 12V battery charger and is only $85 from Tesla. None of that applies to the 16V lithium-ion LV battery, so I disagree with your point. The OP already has one dead 16V that he couldn't revive. I should note the 16V battery Tesla uses is NOT an LFP battery that is commonly used as drop in replacements for 12V lead acid.

What is the big deal about the 16 V battery?. You just need a 16 V battery charger. I posted the link earlier, you can get one from Amazon for $75. It is a battery. The reason they went with 16 V is it’s hard to do 12 V with lithium ion or LFP. The cell combination don’t give you enough overhead capacity and you can easily drop below the 12 V.. 16 V is much better but only from a cell arrangement

I have not heard that he was unable to revive the 16 V battery, with a proper battery charger. There are also ways to bring lithium ion batteries back, with a trickle charge. As I build battery packs myself out of recycled, lithium ion batteries. Some of them will not initially charge..

I am not suggesting doing anything other than charging a battery with an appropriate charger. I cannot understand what the fear is about.
When I changed the batteries in my golf cart to lithium, I also had to change the charger, but it charges without burning down the house.

Please explain to me how none of this applies to a lithium ion LV batteries, I am an electrical engineer so you can go into detail. I would rather be safe.
I’m just talking about charging a battery with a battery charger

http://16.8V 20A Charger 16.8V Li-i...V Lithium Battery Pack https://a.co/d/2Gggr8v
16.8v charger $69

If the battery is a 5S or 6S battery, you can go with something that’s more programmable like this. These can also bring back a dead battery typically
Programmable charger

Cell voltages

 

[MP3Mike]

What is the big deal about the 16 V battery?. You just need a 16 V battery charger.

The 16v battery has a BMS inside, it isn't just a dumb battery you can pump current into. When it discharges to a certain level it disconnects the external contacts making it impossible to charge.

I have not heard that he was unable to revive the 16 V battery, with a proper battery charger. There are also ways to bring lithium ion batteries back, with a trickle charge. As I build battery packs myself out of recycled, lithium ion batteries. Some of them will not initially charge..

Not if you can't get the BMS to re-enable the external connections.

There are also ways to bring lithium ion batteries back, with a trickle charge. As I build battery packs myself out of recycled, lithium ion batteries. Some of them will not initially charge..

Sure, but you are dealing directly with cells when doing that, not a whole battery pack with protection built-in that you can't control. And as people said, you can cut the pack open and recharge the cells in it to revive the 16v battery pack. (But you can't just connect a charger to it externally and do anything.)

 

[drb3333]

I have managed to locate the video someone well versed in Electronics and specially in the new battery architecture. Recharging them manually is not officially recommended or supported by design. Please see the link below. Once the new 16v batteries pass the low charge threshold, they need to be replaced. (Yes corporate greed and Giant companies becoming greedy etc.) Why would they make anything easier for people to work on. Make it impossible so they have no choice but to bring it to them haha. Perfect example used to be Apple.

Good that you are having this discussion; thanks for that but sorry for the occasion. As an EE I just wanted to add data regarding lithiums in general and LiFePO4 in particular.

Regarding earlier points, the 16V lithium has markedly less capacity that it's lead-acid predecessor: 6.9 Ah vs 45 Ah respectively. I do not have personal experience with the updating operation discussed, but I think we can agree that proceeding briskly is a good idea.

Sadly, I also have experience with reviving flat cells; I am at this exact moment staring at 4.8 KWh of dead Winston 500Ah prismatic cells. Yes, there is a process to gradually (apparently) restore them with a slow 0.01C rate but you will find they have a permanent internal self-discharge afterwards if they have gone to zero SOC for an extended period (or been abused with overcharging). This is a consequence of physical migration and solidification of lithium ions as described in the video.

Regrettably, you cannot circumvent the BMS and restore individual cells and expect success; you simply went around the protection but the leakage will be present. You will also find the dendrites will affect individual cell voltages and disturb both top- and bottom-balance. Although the individual cells may appear to be restored, if you perform a careful characterization you will find they now have reduced capacity and significant internal leakage and will require constant charging as well as generate modest internal heating also detrimental to battery life. I have direct experience with this.

The Tesla BMS is guarding against this by constraining charge rate, voltage, and disallowing charging based upon initial condition (i.e. dropping below minimum SOC). That is the reason for requiring replacement with a new battery. And also the reason that a jump-start may not always work since the battery status is conveyed to the system via the serial comms from the battery; merely having 16V present in parallel is not always sufficient.

(For the record, lead-acid chemistry is also permanently damaged by zero SOC but manifests as reduced capacity.)

 

[stopcrazypp]

What is the big deal about the 16 V battery?. You just need a 16 V battery charger. I posted the link earlier, you can get one from Amazon for $75. It is a battery. The reason they went with 16 V is it’s hard to do 12 V with lithium ion or LFP. The cell combination don’t give you enough overhead capacity and you can easily drop below the 12 V.. 16 V is much better but only from a cell arrangement

I have not heard that he was unable to revive the 16 V battery, with a proper battery charger. There are also ways to bring lithium ion batteries back, with a trickle charge. As I build battery packs myself out of recycled, lithium ion batteries. Some of them will not initially charge..

AFAIK there is no one that had been able to revive a Tesla 16V battery externally after it goes fully dead (as in contacts disconnected by BMS) other than cutting the top off and charging cells directly by bypassing the BMS. The only working way to possible revive one is on a working Tesla, which the OP doesn't have and the SCs are refusing to help.

Unless you have personal experience with that 16V battery charger working, I would not go around suggesting that as if it works.

I am not suggesting doing anything other than charging a battery with an appropriate charger. I cannot understand what the fear is about.
When I changed the batteries in my golf cart to lithium, I also had to change the charger, but it charges without burning down the house.

Please explain to me how none of this applies to a lithium ion LV batteries, I am an electrical engineer so you can go into detail. I would rather be safe.
I’m just talking about charging a battery with a battery charger

http://16.8V 20A Charger 16.8V Li-i...V Lithium Battery Pack https://a.co/d/2Gggr8v
16.8v charger $69

If the battery is a 5S or 6S battery, you can go with something that’s more programmable like this. These can also bring back a dead battery typically
Programmable charger

Cell voltages
View attachment 1035009

None of that applies to a dead Tesla 16V battery through the BMS. You have experience working with bare cells or at least a connection to bare cells, but a dead 16V Tesla pack cuts off the connection so unless you can "wake" the BMS (which the car can) there is no way to charge the cells back up.

I have a double major and degree in EE also and I have experience with battery BMSs. In fact I am working on reviving a dead laptop battery pack right now. If you pop open the pack, it's easy to charge the individual parallel cell groups with a standard 18650 charger (just take some leads to connect them to the tabs) or even charge them with a 3S charger by connecting to the bare connection to the 3S negative and positive. However, there is no way to do that externally if the BMS has a permanent flag (for example mine has a under voltage flag from sitting too long discharged much like the OP's 16V battery), which permanently turns off the power FETs and essentially disconnects all external power (in or out). Even if you swap in new cells or recharge the existing cells to full, no power is allowed in or out. The one I'm working on is specifically a TI BMS which requires a manufacturer password to "unseal" the BMS before that flag can be cleared. These types of BMSs have been in use on laptops for literally decades.

I imagine Tesla has a similar BMS on theirs. My laptop's battery uses SMBus data communication. Tesla's uses LIN data communication for theirs. In contrast there is no data communication between the 12V lead acid and the car, it's just a dumb battery.

16v Lithium battery Weber State Video

Just released is a detailed, but not overly technical, video about the 16v aux lithium battery for those who have it in newer Teslas. The video has timestamps for easy access to pertinent information. Of most interest might be: 1:50 The jump-start terminals of the Model 3 2:18 Owner's manual...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[Wasabi K]

I appreciate everyone’s productive input on this matter. As I said in a previous post, worst would be pushing this vehicle off the cliff (not there yet) best already is gaining knowledge which is priceless
I’ll get a new battery from Tesla, just waiting for the lovely rainy weather to go away in few days so I can get back at sorting this out.

 

[jjrandorin]

(moderator note)

I think its great that we have so many learned people here on TMC, especially ones in the field of electrical / electronic engineering. With that being said , sometimes threads start getting into $@$%@$$ wagging, (in this case "degree" instead of "D***").

"Usually", people start brining out their "bonafides", when they are debating something and having a disagreement with someone else, and it "generally" leads to the beginning of quasi flaming. Yes, I realize the "usually" and "generally" qualifications here, but am trying to gently re direct our learned members back to the problem presented.

Thanks.

 

[Madmolecule]

AFAIK there is no one that had been able to revive a Tesla 16V battery externally after it goes fully dead (as in contacts disconnected by BMS) other than cutting the top off and charging cells directly by bypassing the BMS. The only working way to possible revive one is on a working Tesla, which the OP doesn't have and the SCs are refusing to help.

Unless you have personal experience with that 16V battery charger working, I would not go around suggesting that as if it works.

None of that applies to a dead Tesla 16V battery through the BMS. You have experience working with bare cells or at least a connection to bare cells, but a dead 16V Tesla pack cuts off the connection so unless you can "wake" the BMS (which the car can) there is no way to charge the cells back up.

I have a double major and degree in EE also and I have experience with battery BMSs. In fact I am working on reviving a dead laptop battery pack right now. If you pop open the pack, it's easy to charge the individual parallel cell groups with a standard 18650 charger (just take some leads to connect them to the tabs) or even charge them with a 3S charger by connecting to the bare connection to the 3S negative and positive. However, there is no way to do that externally if the BMS has a permanent flag (for example mine has a under voltage flag from sitting too long discharged much like the OP's 16V battery), which permanently turns off the power FETs and essentially disconnects all external power (in or out). Even if you swap in new cells or recharge the existing cells to full, no power is allowed in or out. The one I'm working on is specifically a TI BMS which requires a manufacturer password to "unseal" the BMS before that flag can be cleared. These types of BMSs have been in use on laptops for literally decades.

I imagine Tesla has a similar BMS on theirs. My laptop's battery uses SMBus data communication. Tesla's uses LIN data communication for theirs. In contrast there is no data communication between the 12V lead acid and the car, it's just a dumb battery.

16v Lithium battery Weber State Video

Just released is a detailed, but not overly technical, video about the 16v aux lithium battery for those who have it in newer Teslas. The video has timestamps for easy access to pertinent information. Of most interest might be: 1:50 The jump-start terminals of the Model 3 2:18 Owner's manual...

teslamotorsclub.com

Just saying, charge the battery, not bypass the BMS or break apart the battery. I have done everything you said. that's how batteries work. The battery is from a newer Tesla and is probably chargeable. the charger is only $70 so I feel it is worth a try and is safe!
But I have been accused of trying to compensate for my shortcomings in the past, but it is just a rumor.

 

[kpanda17]

M3 2023. Bought at Auction with rear quarter panel damage (driver side) no air bag or pyro blown. All good. Checked pyro, fuse is good. Car won’t charge. If the HV battery has not been charged for a year, is it automatically dead?

enlightening the group, which model? miles? how much did you pay?
if all amazing facts, good for you, i'd search wide, maybe just cali or tx for a Tesla expert mech outside of Tesla
good luck

 

[nicksp]

enlightening the group, which model? miles? how much did you pay?
if all amazing facts, good for you, i'd search wide, maybe just cali or tx for a Tesla expert mech outside of Tesla
good luck

As per OP the car is 22 M3 and cost $25k.

 

[kpanda17]

As per OP the car is 22 M3 and cost $25k.

Thanks, not a fire sale for purchasing so much risk

 

[Madmolecule]

in summary what I felt happened with my car, which is a 2018 with lead acid, but I don’t think it makes much difference, when the car’s is computer detect a VCFault, it does not try to charge the battery anymore, once a proper voltage has been detected, as well as the plug under the seat, being connected and reconnected for a reset, there was nothing I could do to clear the alarms or charge the low-voltage battery. If the VC fault was caused by a dead battery that can’t be charged, the only thing you can do is replace the battery. if the VC fault was caused by the 12 V battery being drained by the door being left open, or something else directly connected to the 12 V source, and the battery falls below the required voltage, I guess 14 V in your case, It will still disable the car from being charged, disable many other features of the car, But there is really nothing wrong with the battery other than it needed to be charged, but the car does not know that

 

[nicksp]

Soo how did this story end? OP?