M3 issue in the Colorado Mountains

[Glamisduner]

Howdy,

I live in the mountains of CO. We have big time Winter.

Yesterday I drove from the house to Denver. My car, M3 red brakes, didn't feel safe.

I have snow tires -- Michelin Alpin Pilot PA4.

I travel over two passes to get to Denver; Vail Pass, and the West approach to The Eisenhower Tunnel.

On the way up Vail Pass the car was slipping. Luckily, there wasn't much traffic and I could keep momentum going. Otherwise, I might have got stuck.

On the approach to the tunnel it was worse.

Now before I go on, the conditions yesterday were just about as bad as they get. Semis were getting towed going up to the tunnel. Cars without snow tires were having trouble. Vail Pass was bad, but the plows had come through once.

On the approach up to the tunnel, I didn't feel safe. Because, if I had to stop I don't believe I could have started again without going sideways. If I go sideways, I slide into the next lane - crash.

Worse, the wipers failed. Well, not fail. But when I switched to Auto, they went fast back and forth. So I couldn't use Auto. Auto doesn't work anyway, so no biggie. The point is, I couldn't turn off the wipers. I think the reason why, was they were caked with ice. Elon's software didn't plan for wipers caked with ice. Here's a vid:

This video is from the east side of the tunnel, heading down to Denver. The roads look like summer compared to what I'd just driven through.

I'd post videos of the car going slipping. I was going to. But for some reason, there's no files on my dash cam from yesterday. Something else Elon needs to fix.

I've driven this trip who knows how many times - in Audis and our HIPEVAN. Never once, have I felt unsafe. In fact I dominate on the trip, because I'm in an Audi or our Van. I'm the guy going around everyone. Now, I'm the guy struggling.

Maybe it's the 20" tires? Could be. Today I stopped by the Littleton Service Center to beyotch. The rep I talked to said, "You're not the first one we've heard from about this".

I'm going to get 18's and put Hakkapaliitta's on. Maybe that will do the trick. But it pisses me off that I have to dump a lot of dough ray me into the car to maybe -- maybe -- get the performance brother Elon promised on the website. Brother Elon says his cars do great in the Winter, that his All-Wheel Drive rocks. At this point I don't believe brother Elon has been where Winter really happens. The wiper video is proof positive.

The M3 with Red Brakes is not a car for the Colorado Mountains, when Winter is on. Nope. That doesn't mean it sucks, doesn't mean it's not adequate for places where there's less Winter.

So what's the solution? Brother Elon needs to be straight with people. And, he needs to make an 18" wheel set, pronto.

I wish I had the dash cam vids, so Brother Elon could watch his car fail. I'd have posted them. Maybe Brother Elon knew his car was tanking, and deleted the vids? Just kidding. Sort of.

Peace and love,

Try a free recovery software to get those videos back. Worked for me when the dashcam would get corrupted.

 

[Nate977p]

Just to let everyone know, the battery meter that displays while you drive is based on a static consumption rate and not on the actual consumption of you driving. The energy graph gives you a running guess of your total range (not remaining range) based on average consumption.

In cold weather, your consumption will always be highest when you initially start driving and the battery pack is cold. This is mostly to do with the fact that the batteries can not discharge their typical capacity on the same curve they do when they're warm. On top of this, short trips always consume more than if you're out driving for 30 miles. So quick winter trips are the absolute worst case scenario. As you drive, though, you'll end up consuming only slightly more than you would in summer time.

@Tony8489 the energy graph appeared on the Model 3 with version 9 last month.

Want to counter that a bit on the over 30 mile drive.

I actually take my miles and divide by half and that's been incredibly accurate. Percentage I could times by 1.5 too, but for some reason dividing by 1/2 computes quicker for me.

My efficiency is spot on for really any distance...

First is drives over 25 miles, second is drives over 1 mile.

 

[spinbackwards]

Howdy and Hey Now,

Yeah, definitely had, "A Momentary Lapse of Reason" thinking 20's would work.

Tonight on the way home from Denver to Eagle it was cold, low 20's to low teens. Roads were wet, some heavy snow in places. I used 130 rated miles for a 70 mile drive.

So when the roads are snowy and it's cold, I use the 2:1 rule too, just to be safe.

I let a little air out of the tires, car felt pretty good.

Re: the slipping. The car slips, but it corrects itself. Now I'm used to it. I'm sure I'll get better traction once I throw the 18" Hakka's on. Hopefully I'll get the wheels soon. Seems like T Sportline is the way to go.

There's a thread about customers having to wait for wheels. Hey I'm just grateful T Sportline is there.

Wipers seem to work better now with the latest update. Still not great, but way better.

Hey man. I'm driving a Tesla. Helping Mother Earth. It's super cool. I'm not going to beach or moan.

Ski rack will be here Thursday. Will post pics once it's mounted.

Peace and love!

 

[spinbackwards]

Jeezus I forgot how great A Momentary Lapse of Reason is:

 

[DrDabbles]

Nothing about the first private network. I'm disappointed.

 

[spinbackwards]

Nothing about the first private network. I'm disappointed.

Hey thanks for asking!

When MySpace (or what is it myspace?) hit we were like, "People will never fall for this. They'll figure out they're the product being sold, they'll be pissed".

Then Facebook came along. I think it was still called The Facebook. I thought, "haven't people read about Zuckerberg? He's a clown. He just wants to get laid"

So we wrote zeldab.com

No one cared.

Investors told me I was nuts. Tech investors are like sheep - they emailed me Scott McNealy's quote "Privacy is dead, get over it".

We had Blockchain technology figured out then. Google stole the concept of "Circles" from us.

In 2013 I wrote that social media would affect our elections one day.

Social media is a social disease.

Without privacy there is no freedom.

Peace and love!

 

[dhrivnak]

Totally agree. I suggest switching to percentage to anyone living in a cold region. Forgot that recommandation.

In my daughter Spark EV, the battery range adjust to cold temperature - so you don't have a false sense of unattainable range.

As does our Chevy Volt. In the winter the battery range drops to 30 miles down from my summer average of 40. Both numbers are reasonably accurate.

 

[Nate977p]

When

Howdy and Hey Now,

Yeah, definitely had, "A Momentary Lapse of Reason" thinking 20's would work.

Tonight on the way home from Denver to Eagle it was cold, low 20's to low teens. Roads were wet, some heavy snow in places. I used 130 rated miles for a 70 mile drive.

So when the roads are snowy and it's cold, I use the 2:1 rule too, just to be safe.

I let a little air out of the tires, car felt pretty good.

Re: the slipping. The car slips, but it corrects itself. Now I'm used to it. I'm sure I'll get better traction once I throw the 18" Hakka's on. Hopefully I'll get the wheels soon. Seems like T Sportline is the way to go.

There's a thread about customers having to wait for wheels. Hey I'm just grateful T Sportline is there.

Wipers seem to work better now with the latest update. Still not great, but way better.

Hey man. I'm driving a Tesla. Helping Mother Earth. It's super cool. I'm not going to beach or moan.

Ski rack will be here Thursday. Will post pics once it's mounted.

Peace and love!

did you order the Ski Rack? First batch?

 

[spinbackwards]

When

did you order the Ski Rack? First batch?

Howdy,

Yes, I got the roof rack on Tesla's site. How? Because I'm OCD, checked the Shop page a few times a day to see if they were in stock. Was lucky to score one, I guess.

It'll be here today.

I checked out the Yakima rack. Looked like it was clunky. I like the look of Tesla's.

I'm putting the Evo 6 FatCat on it. Low profile, I dig it.

Will post pics once it's on.

Peace and love,

 

[Prunesquallor]

Interesting short article on Electrek today concerning Model 3 in the snow, with video.

https://electrek.co/2018/12/28/tesla-model-3-drift-snow-track/

 

[TheFuture]

Here's a vid of my P3D in the snow, 3 days ago, Michelin PA4's on my stock 20" performance wheels. This thing is complete #beastmode! I've had some insane previous AWD cars to compare it to as well.

 

[MikeM3D]

I totally hear the owner of “Red Brakes” it is frustrating to believe a story and experience something else. Its frustrating to spend a significant amount of money and have any kind of underperformance —much less on a saftey related issue.

That said I used to live out by you, and WOW winters are a unique experience —my context is, I lived in NY before and after Colorado. Driving thise mountains so ateep they have off ramps for runaway tractor trailers is a sight for the non-local.

My simple observation having owned German sports cars before (BMW) is every brand has a core competency —thats what your buying. Tesla is high tech, cool, and fast (thus the common comparison to an iPhone) —I struggle with the idea of a fast sporty M3D in a significant winter storm here, I kinda want to leave it in the garage all winter. Its just too pretty (especially with the black and white interior . —when the snow and ice pile up, I simply dont and cant believe my M3D will so very well. What a stretch that is.

A rational bet is it will have average performance on the right tires, on an average winter snow day. Not great.

On a bad day I expect very little from a fast, high tech sports car.

Add in this is all very new, and this vehicle can be nothing like what they will be in 5+ years... and we know what we bought into.

Ultra simplicity, super cool, fast, fun, unique (for now). —Rocky Mountain winters, heavy snow and ice... I’d buy an old Jeep Rubicon, or something else with a boss 4WD system made for more extreme conditions.

I’d enjoy the hell out of it the other 3 seasons a year. Thats what these cars are great for. —If still unhappy, sell it in the spring to someone without the bank roll you are fortunately enough to have, and even at less than you’d like, get something that makes you happy.

Tesla will be focused on the mass market, and that will be priority one —when you look at the average Tesla buyer, they arent buying for extreme conditions like I remember with a degree of awe when driving on those roads your describing.

 

[spinbackwards]

Hey Now,

Your video is a great promotion to show people electric cars do well in the snow. You're helping sell electric cars, which is helping Mother Earth. It's righteous, I can't thank you enough.

But...

The video is hero snow. The snow is dry, there's no ice underneath. There's no cars around you. It's not snowing.

For where I live, I'm super happy I snapped out of my Momentary Lapse Of Reason and bought 18 wheels w/Hakka's.

Psyched to get them on.

Thanks again,

Peace and love,

 

[spinbackwards]

I totally hear the owner of “Red Brakes” it is frustrating to believe a story and experience something else. Its frustrating to spend a significant amount of money and have any kind of underperformance —much less on a saftey related issue.

That said I used to live out by you, and WOW winters are a unique experience —my context is, I lived in NY before and after Colorado. Driving thise mountains so ateep they have off ramps for runaway tractor trailers is a sight for the non-local.

My simple observation having owned German sports cars before (BMW) is every brand has a core competency —thats what your buying. Tesla is high tech, cool, and fast (thus the common comparison to an iPhone) —I struggle with the idea of a fast sporty M3D in a significant winter storm here, I kinda want to leave it in the garage all winter. Its just too pretty (especially with the black and white interior . —when the snow and ice pile up, I simply dont and cant believe my M3D will so very well. What a stretch that is.

A rational bet is it will have average performance on the right tires, on an average winter snow day. Not great.

On a bad day I expect very little from a fast, high tech sports car.

Add in this is all very new, and this vehicle can be nothing like what they will be in 5+ years... and we know what we bought into.

Ultra simplicity, super cool, fast, fun, unique (for now). —Rocky Mountain winters, heavy snow and ice... I’d buy an old Jeep Rubicon, or something else with a boss 4WD system made for more extreme conditions.

I’d enjoy the hell out of it the other 3 seasons a year. Thats what these cars are great for. —If still unhappy, sell it in the spring to someone without the bank roll you are fortunately enough to have, and even at less than you’d like, get something that makes you happy.

Tesla will be focused on the mass market, and that will be priority one —when you look at the average Tesla buyer, they arent buying for extreme conditions like I remember with a degree of awe when driving on those roads your describing.

Unhappy? You got the wrong cowboy! I drive a Tesla. I live where others go to vacation. I grew up here. My wife loved me when I was dead broke. My dogs do what I say most of the time. My kid questions authority. I make great turns. I got a HIPEVAN. Unhappy? Me? Hey man, if this a dream please don't wake me up!

A Jeep? Nah. I don't know anyone up here who counts on a Jeep for the snow.

My car is fine. It's not quite as good as an Audi, but that's a high bar.

When I get my 18's, I'll be stylin'

Peace and love!

 

[RickinCO]

Howdy,

I live in the mountains of CO. We have big time Winter.

Yesterday I drove from the house to Denver. My car, M3 red brakes, didn't feel safe.

I have snow tires -- Michelin Alpin Pilot PA4.

I travel over two passes to get to Denver; Vail Pass, and the West approach to The Eisenhower Tunnel.

On the way up Vail Pass the car was slipping. Luckily, there wasn't much traffic and I could keep momentum going. Otherwise, I might have got stuck.

On the approach to the tunnel it was worse.

Now before I go on, the conditions yesterday were just about as bad as they get. Semis were getting towed going up to the tunnel. Cars without snow tires were having trouble. Vail Pass was bad, but the plows had come through once.

On the approach up to the tunnel, I didn't feel safe. Because, if I had to stop I don't believe I could have started again without going sideways. If I go sideways, I slide into the next lane - crash.

Worse, the wipers failed. Well, not fail. But when I switched to Auto, they went fast back and forth. So I couldn't use Auto. Auto doesn't work anyway, so no biggie. The point is, I couldn't turn off the wipers. I think the reason why, was they were caked with ice. Elon's software didn't plan for wipers caked with ice. Here's a vid:

This video is from the east side of the tunnel, heading down to Denver. The roads look like summer compared to what I'd just driven through.

I'd post videos of the car going slipping. I was going to. But for some reason, there's no files on my dash cam from yesterday. Something else Elon needs to fix.

I've driven this trip who knows how many times - in Audis and our HIPEVAN. Never once, have I felt unsafe. In fact I dominate on the trip, because I'm in an Audi or our Van. I'm the guy going around everyone. Now, I'm the guy struggling.

Maybe it's the 20" tires? Could be. Today I stopped by the Littleton Service Center to beyotch. The rep I talked to said, "You're not the first one we've heard from about this".

I'm going to get 18's and put Hakkapaliitta's on. Maybe that will do the trick. But it pisses me off that I have to dump a lot of dough ray me into the car to maybe -- maybe -- get the performance brother Elon promised on the website. Brother Elon says his cars do great in the Winter, that his All-Wheel Drive rocks. At this point I don't believe brother Elon has been where Winter really happens. The wiper video is proof positive.

The M3 with Red Brakes is not a car for the Colorado Mountains, when Winter is on. Nope. That doesn't mean it sucks, doesn't mean it's not adequate for places where there's less Winter.

So what's the solution? Brother Elon needs to be straight with people. And, he needs to make an 18" wheel set, pronto.

I wish I had the dash cam vids, so Brother Elon could watch his car fail. I'd have posted them. Maybe Brother Elon knew his car was tanking, and deleted the vids? Just kidding. Sort of.

Peace and love,

Hi,

I live in Breckenridge CO and also own a Tesla 3 Performance. Before changing out to my winter tires (also Michelin Alpin Pilot PA4 tires) I had a few scary experiences in early season snow. I called the Tire Rack to see what the best winter tire options were for the 20” wheels with red brakes. What I was told by the rep from the Tire Rack was that Tesla bought up virtually every 20” Pirelli Sottozero winter tire on the market. So I could either drive down to the Tesla Littleton CO service center and buy their winter tire package ($4,000 plus install) or buy a comparable winter tire (Michelin Alpin Pilot PA4) and have them mounted locally. This was the approach I used. By the way, make sure your tire shop has a set of Tesla 3 Jack Pads; I bought the Reverse Logic brand to safely lift your car without damage to your battery tray or undercarriage.

I have a second set of Tesla 20” wheels on order, likely May 2019 delivery for my summer tires. I looked into the Nokia’s winter tires but I couldn’t find them in a 20” design. I was told by Tesla and the Tire Rack only the 20” wheels will safely clear the performance brakes. The winter tires are a big upgrade but the car does not outperform our Audi Quattro or Subaru Outback in heavy winter conditions, not even close. I also saw Elon’s post with the 3 power sliding in Alaska. I love my Tesla 3 but this is not our “go to snow car” nor do I ever think it will be.

It is really a great 3-season car and an adequate winter car but even with a great set of winter tires is is simply okay in heavy snow. Most readers will not care about this comment but I was hoping to make this my daily driver (I sold my BMW X3 to make room for the Model 3).
If anyone has discovered a magic way to get the Littleton CO service center to call you back, I’m all ears. A great car was a few bugs to work out in the customer service and care departments.

 

[RickinCO]

I totally hear the owner of “Red Brakes” it is frustrating to believe a story and experience something else. Its frustrating to spend a significant amount of money and have any kind of underperformance —much less on a saftey related issue.

That said I used to live out by you, and WOW winters are a unique experience —my context is, I lived in NY before and after Colorado. Driving thise mountains so ateep they have off ramps for runaway tractor trailers is a sight for the non-local.

My simple observation having owned German sports cars before (BMW) is every brand has a core competency —thats what your buying. Tesla is high tech, cool, and fast (thus the common comparison to an iPhone) —I struggle with the idea of a fast sporty M3D in a significant winter storm here, I kinda want to leave it in the garage all winter. Its just too pretty (especially with the black and white interior . —when the snow and ice pile up, I simply dont and cant believe my M3D will so very well. What a stretch that is.

A rational bet is it will have average performance on the right tires, on an average winter snow day. Not great.

On a bad day I expect very little from a fast, high tech sports car.

Add in this is all very new, and this vehicle can be nothing like what they will be in 5+ years... and we know what we bought into.

Ultra simplicity, super cool, fast, fun, unique (for now). —Rocky Mountain winters, heavy snow and ice... I’d buy an old Jeep Rubicon, or something else with a boss 4WD system made for more extreme conditions.

I’d enjoy the hell out of it the other 3 seasons a year. Thats what these cars are great for. —If still unhappy, sell it in the spring to someone without the bank roll you are fortunately enough to have, and even at less than you’d like, get something that makes you happy.

Tesla will be focused on the mass market, and that will be priority one —when you look at the average Tesla buyer, they arent buying for extreme conditions like I remember with a degree of awe when driving on those roads your describing.

Well said. This car matches up well with most driver needs but not extreme winter conditions. But for the other 3 seasons, it is a blast to drive.

 

[mrbicycle]

Thanks so much for sharing! Where do you live?

We just purchased a Model 3 long-range from Denver yesterday, and live up by Aspen (Basalt)...(Car's still in Denver getting a Yellow Wrap )

Wife wanted me to go with the non-performance (live down a and up a 3 mile bumpy and steep dirt road, AND there's a budget consideration)...however, been having regrets till I read this post.

I've got Nokian Hakkapalliitta 9's studded on my CRV, have used studs on my 3-series beemers and will be going with them on the Model 3...likely with 18's...

Wondered where you live and what you've done since you've made this post. And thank you for posting, you have one of the greatest cars in the world (in my opinion), but your post's helping me with the buyer's remorse over getting the non-P.

Keep shining bright!

 

[mrbicycle]

Thanks so much for sharing! Where do you live?

We just purchased a Model 3 long-range from Denver yesterday, and live up by Aspen (Basalt)...(Car's still in Denver getting a Yellow Wrap )

Wife wanted me to go with the non-performance (live down a and up a 3 mile bumpy and steep dirt road, AND there's a budget consideration)...however, been having regrets till I read this post.

I've got Nokian Hakkapalliitta 9's studded on my CRV, have used studs on my 3-series beemers and will be going with them on the Model 3...likely with 18's...

Wondered where you live and what you've done since you've made this post. And thank you for posting, you have one of the greatest cars in the world (in my opinion), but your post's helping me with the buyer's remorse over getting the non-P.

Keep shining bright!

P.S. I use a -20 degree de-icer for around here...and my blades on the CRV froze-up yesterday in the single-digits and teens headed to Tesla in Denver until I blasted the windshield with heat to melt the ice on the blades.

 

[Philh2o]

Spinny—


I wanted to pop in on this even though I skipped most of the other posts but do share similar experiences. I live in Evergreen near the Brook Forest Inn. The last four miles to my house includes 63 curves and an elevation gain of 800 ft. (Not bad but noticeable.) The road goes in and out of sun/shade which results in some tricky freeze/thaw/freeze patches. I, too, have noticed—and gotten used to—a slight initial slip in our long-range, AWD M3 before the AWD kicks in but am still concerned about why that is even the case. Our 2002 Volvo S60 tracked with more confidence. We replaced that last year with an Audi A5 Sportback which is seamless. Amazing, actually, even with all-season tires.


Something else to note is that, like the Audi, traction control will not kick-in until you counter-steer. (Our Honda CR-V automatically defaults to granny-mode whenever the rear end gets busy no matter what you're doing with the steering wheel.) As a poster at the Audi forum asked after I wrote about the apparent lack of traction control in the A5 while I was throwing it around an empty parking lot covered with 5-inches of snow by way of testing how the vehicle would handle 'in crisis', "…um, did you counter-steer while you were spinning around in a circle? Because the Audi is a 'sports' car, and some people might want to throw it into a 180." So drove back to my informal test site where, indeed, once I turned into the skid the TC activated promptly. Knowing this ahead of time I discovered the same behavior with our M3 but didn't have to be shamed into the discovery. (At least on this topic.)


Still, there are other Colorado-eque details that would be common to other owners living in winter climates. 1) The car is cold. Just plain cold. I don't care how toasty my feet and a$$ are, the glass roof provides no insulation. Being follicle-y challenged I think the local dealership should provide owners such as myself with wool beanies adorned with a big, red "T". Even with the heat cabin set to 70 and the seat heat on I can feel cold when my hand is within 4 inches on the roof. 2) Panel popping! Sounds like Chinese New Year's when the battery is heating up with the undercarriage is cold. "Nothing to be alarmed about" say the folks at the Denver service center. At least with the "Fart-mode" update we can explain to passengers that it's one of the options. 3) Range loss. Indeed, well documented but my hope here is that Tesla will expand the charging network asap. "Alamosa by the end of the 2018"? Not gonna happen. Coming home from New Mexico over Thanksgiving we had to re-route an extra 72 miles to I-25 just to be safe as an incoming winter storm and resulting conditions that would have made the leg between the Santa Fe and Poncha Springs superchargers along US-285 a sketchy proposition.

By the way, very interested to see pics of the roof rack though I try to keep my skis inside of all vehicles whenever possible. I'll be looking for your red brakes along I-70 this winter!

 

[robertmanning]

Wipers: I am pretty sure they can be turned off - see a prior post.

Definitely the stock P3D+ isn't safe in winter. I'm not sure whether that is really a truth in advertising thing though. Page 131 of the Model 3 owner's manual tells you that you need winter tires if your vehicle is equipped with summer tires!

I do understand you are NOT using the stock tires; I am just responding to the truth in advertising comment.

"Warning:
In cold temperatures or on snow
or ice, summer tires do not provide
adequate traction. Selecting and installing
the appropriate tires for winter conditions
is important to ensure the safety and
optimum performance of your Model 3 "

Anyway, regarding other modes, since you did not have the wipers turned off:

Were you in Chill mode?

Did you have Slip Start enabled? The manual recommends having it off in most conditions but obviously for some starting conditions it might be needed - however, it should be turned off afterwards from what I understand.

Regen was set to low? Understood you were driving uphill but it's not clear exactly when you were experiencing the worst sliding...

He has winter tires on his car. Are people not reading his post?