M3 issue in the Colorado Mountains

[GregD60]

You need to grow a thicker skin. Your claim was that my experience with the Model 3 was the outlier. I simply pointed out that the majority of people have been having exceptionally good experiences with Model 3's winter performance and capability.



Well, if that's the only example of my "nonsense" then you better come up with some better ones. Because I didn't say or imply Tesla only used one tire to program their electronics. Obviously, they used summer performance tires, all-season radials and winter tires (and different sized rims) to program and validate their electronic systems. But they didn't use "squishy" treaded winter tires. We know that because those kind of tires upset the Model 3's slip detection as evidenced by the limited regen that required an emergency software update fix. And that could be part of SilentCorp's problem (the detuning of the DSTC slip algorithms due to squishy tires). Tesla has not hid the fact that they developed and validated the winter traction using Pirellis. So if this is my "nonsense" then you need to chill out. You are coming across as being very angry, emotional and overly personal.



And the huge disparity between the speed and sensitivity of the DSTC of your experience and mine is why I'm looking for answers. It's not nice to belittle and get personal of someone who is looking for answers to the problems you are obviously having.



That's true, He has at least two sets of winter tires that he switches between on his Model 3. And he's had a great experience with both sets. If I recall, his take was that the Nexen tires have more ultimate snow/ice traction but the Pirelli's offer more balanced, all-around traction on a variety of winter surfaces. But mostly that the Model 3 performs extra well in the slippery stuff over all.

No need to make this get personal! We can disagree on technical matters but I don't really like you jumping down my throat.

You should take your own words that I bolded above to heart. You even acknowledge that you made it personal with the first sentence of your post.

I never claimed that your experience was "the outlier" since I have nowhere near enough data to make such a claim. What is apparent is that I am not unique in my concern with the Model 3's responses in snow and ice.

It is incorrect to say that "the majority of people have been having exceptionally good experiences with Model 3's winter performance and capability." There has been no comprehensive survey done of this to justify such a statement; we simply don't know how many people are, and are not, happy with the Model 3's reactions in snow and ice. In fact, if we go just by this thread, more people have expressed concerns with the car's behavior than have been applauding it.

Finally, Tesla doesn't have a different traction control programming for winter versus summer. Also, where did you get the idea that, "But they didn't use "squishy" treaded winter tires. We know that because those kind of tires upset the Model 3's slip detection as evidenced by the limited regen that required an emergency software update fix."? Please provide a link to back up your claim.

 

[voip-ninja]

I would put it differently. I would say the experiences you two have shared are dramatically different from most other winter driving experts (myself included) that have reported on Model 3's winter performance. Like the Mad Hungarian who raves about the control and winter performance of the Model 3 as well as just about every winter driving video I've seen on the Model 3.

Is it possible that the winter tires you guys mounted up are not up to handling all the weight well (even if rated for it)? Another possibility: I know the Model 3's electronic DSTC system was programmed with the Sottozero 2's. Maybe that's part of it too. Tesla recently modified the slip detection algorithms to deal with the squirmy treads some winter tires are afflicted with. It could be that it accomplishes that by de-tuning the slip detection when it detects "squirmy" tires making it slower to respond to slips and slides. My Model 3 is telepathic and reacts more quickly and less obtrusively than any other car I've driven. I noticed this first when pushing wet corners hard, long before my car saw it's first winter storm.

I've been driving in winter conditions for over 30 years. I cut my teeth driving in VT winter conditions on back roads where most people are too broke to buy snow tires for their car and I ended up off the road several times as a teenager when conditions were abysmal. You either learn very careful application of the throttle and brakes, appropriate gear selection, etc., or you end up going off the road repeatedly.

The last 25+ years I've lived in Colorado and I've driven in a variety of winter conditions that range from fresh powder, to heavy wet snow to completely glazed roads to the more typical packed roads that get a quick run of the plow over the top and then good enough till the next snowfall.

My last several cars have been all wheel drive German brands with all season or dedicated winter tires. I also drive the family cars which consist of an eight year old FWD Honda (snow tires), Acura SUV (all seasons), wife's Mini (snow tires), etc.

After reading all of the exuberant gushing about the performance of the Model 3 in snowy conditions, replete with videos of the Model 3 P running a performance winter track where it exhibits very aggressive, controlled slides through windy track sections I am really kind of amazed that you are still banging this drum.

My experience is that the Model 3 traction control system is slower to engage than other cars with similar weight and power, even when it is equipped with much better rubber for the conditions.

For typical residential/commuting purposes the entire point of traction control in winter conditions is that you want to keep the car as stable as possible when there is any off axis movement. The Model 3 does not do that. It allows quite a lot of tail bobbing in what I would describe as fairly mild slippery conditions. I have actually been somewhat surprised (and I don't startle easily) by how much it will let the car slip and risk getting into the oncoming lane before it takes action. I have had it allow the tail to bob around while going up an icy hill that presented ZERO behavior like this in my 340xi with all season radials (and not even good ones).

I have gotten it to behave a little bit better by creating a "snow mode" setting where regen is backed off and throttle is set to chill.

All cars exhibit some uncontrolled lateral movement in icy road conditions but I've never experienced the amount I am getting from the Tesla Model 3 dual motor in any other all wheel drive car I have owned or driven.

 

[silentcorp]

i received an email from the local SC that they pushed the latest firmware to me and they asked if that helped the traction issues at all. Not sure if there was anything included in there but my appointment is next Monday.

 

[Zorg]

I drove my 3D on icy/snowy roads in the Sierra last Monday and my stock 18" tires did just fine. We weren't going fast but I never lost traction, even on steep roads.

Works for me for my twice a year trip to the snow.

 

[Reeler]

My wife drove me to the airport last week in the snow. She drives a Model S and used to drive a Model X. I had to warn her that the Model 3 likes to fish tail with each acceleration. We were spoiled with the premium Teslas having rock solid traction control.

I guess the value model has to have some flaws or less will pay the premium. I hope it is just a firmware update that puts the Model 3 on par with other Tesla models.

 

[voip-ninja]

My wife drove me to the airport last week in the snow. She drives a Model S and used to drive a Model X. I had to warn her that the Model 3 likes to fish tail with each acceleration. We were spoiled with the premium Teslas having rock solid traction control.

I guess the value model has to have some flaws or less will pay the premium. I hope it is just a firmware update that puts the Model 3 on par with other Tesla models.

You really think that Tesla gimped the traction control on the 3, creating potential safety problems, because it's a cheaper car?

BMW provides the same traction control system on all of their AWD cars between $35,000 and $80,000 and I'm pretty sure Audi and Mercedes follow suit.

I would be completely amazed if Tesla intentionally made the car less safe and argued it was so that people would step up to the more expensive car.

 

[blake6551]

I have the Tesla Sottozero II winter tire package and I'm not impressed either. Way too much fishtailing, even when the power is turned down. The tires do track and stop very well, even in fresh snow, so I do not believe it is a tire issue.

My X has far more controlled acceleratoin, even with the stock all seasons.

 

[StealthP3D]

I drove my 3D on icy/snowy roads in the Sierra last Monday and my stock 18" tires did just fine. We weren't going fast but I never lost traction, even on steep roads.

I'm not a fan of running all-season radials in the snow and ice but if the superior traction control of the Model 3 makes it work for you, more power to you!

I do like that Tesla's traction control allows the driver more leeway to apply heavy heavy throttle and get the back end to kick out a bit. Under light throttle, it reacts very quickly and completely to stop the tires from spinning up. I think some people are applying too much throttle for conditions, a situation which other cars nanny system will not allow, much to the consternation of drivers everywhere.

The Tesla system is less like that nagging nanny and more like the hand of God looking after you while still allowing you to apply some extra throttle if desired. It's a less intrusive system that allows more control by the driver.

 

[Zorg]

I'm not a fan of running all-season radials in the snow and ice but if the superior traction control of the Model 3 makes it work for you, more power to you!

I do like that Tesla's traction control allows the driver more leeway to apply heavy heavy throttle and get the back end to kick out a bit. Under light throttle, it reacts very quickly and completely to stop the tires from spinning up. I think some people are applying too much throttle for conditions, a situation which other cars nanny system will not allow, much to the consternation of drivers everywhere.

The Tesla system is less like that nagging nanny and more like the hand of God looking after you while still allowing you to apply some extra throttle if desired. It's a less intrusive system that allows more control by the driver.

As a lowlander they are good enough for my twice a year trip to the snowy mountains.

 

[SkiCO]

Hello sir. I drive the same Colorado mountains you do in a RWD Model S with Michellin X-Ice winter tires. I have never had any issues on I-70 or any roads with snow for that matter. You shouldn't have any issues with your AWD Model 3. I run the Denver Tesla Club and have club members say even the RWD 3 with snow tires works incredibly well. I'd start with your tires first. Please send me a message if I can help further.

Hi Shawn, I’ve had my Dual Motor with 18” wheels mounted with Blizzaks since early December. Even in chill mode and with regen limited I’ve had the rear end break loose more times than I can count on I70. It’s a real problem even driving 40 mph where my former Subaru crushed it at 55 mph. Traction control and torque management on the rear wheels is terrible. I’m no longer recommending the M3 to friends until they get this fixed.

 

[Reeler]

You really think that Tesla gimped the traction control on the 3, creating potential safety problems, because it's a cheaper car?

BMW provides the same traction control system on all of their AWD cars between $35,000 and $80,000 and I'm pretty sure Audi and Mercedes follow suit.

I would be completely amazed if Tesla intentionally made the car less safe and argued it was so that people would step up to the more expensive car.

They either gimped it or want to have the ability to slide through a turn. Either way, I have owned 4 Model S/X models over the years and none of them fishtailed like the Model 3. Same motor and controller tech so there is no reason the Model 3 shouldn't be rock solid with an acceleration. Whatever the motivation, the Model 3 is a sketchy ride when compared to the premium Teslas.

 

[cstork]

Yes, there is no question that the M3 AWD rear end breaks loose far too easily in snow. I think the problem is simple: the car sends too much torque to the rear wheels. The rear motor is 2x stronger than the front motor, but they could easily correct for this via the electronic controls.

I think Tesla needs to create a snow driving mode where more torque is sent to the front motor.

 

[GregD60]

They either gimped it or want to have the ability to slide through a turn. Either way, I have owned 4 Model S/X models over the years and none of them fishtailed like the Model 3. Same motor and controller tech so there is no reason the Model 3 shouldn't be rock solid with an acceleration. Whatever the motivation, the Model 3 is a sketchy ride when compared to the premium Teslas.

At this point, I'm pretty sure that Tesla intentionally decided to allow the tail to move out a foot or two when turning in slippery conditions. Now that I'm used to it, it's fine when there's room. The problem is that there isn't always a foot or two to play with. Chill with regen does help quite a bit, but a true snow mode would be better.

Also, for those of us who learned to drive with the mantra of turning into the skid, that really doesn't work with the Model 3; it just makes the car skid in the opposite direction a bit. Just steer where you want to go and the electronics will straighten it out.

 

[GregD60]

Hi Shawn, I’ve had my Dual Motor with 18” wheels mounted with Blizzaks since early December. Even in chill mode and with regen limited I’ve had the rear end break loose more times than I can count on I70. It’s a real problem even driving 40 mph where my former Subaru crushed it at 55 mph. Traction control and torque management on the rear wheels is terrible. I’m no longer recommending the M3 to friends until they get this fixed.

I'm sure your M3 could drive at 55 as well; you'd just have to get used to the tail moving around. Just steer where you want to go and ignore the drifting. It really does work although it's rather uncomfortable feeling.

 

[MP3Mike]

I have owned 4 Model S/X models over the years and none of them fishtailed like the Model 3. Same motor and controller tech

Actually it is different motor and controller tech. In fact for the S&X Tesla went with an outside vendor for the traction control system, while on the Model 3 it is an in-house system. (Which is what allowed them to do track mode.)