Main Panel Full - Free up Space or Subpanel

[rjack1282]

So my main panel is completely full and so I am seeking thoughts/advice on the possibility of freeing up space with various modifications to current breakers (preferred route if possible) or is a subpanel my only option? I'm wanting to install 50 amp breaker for 14-50 outlet. Thanks in advance for any advice.

Here is a picture of the main panel in current state:

 

[Ostrichsak]

Basically, you could free up physical slots with the use of tandem breakers but the main concern is if you have the capacity as in amp capacity even if you free up space. This is a more important aspect to adding something like a 50A breaker since you plan to draw 40A continuously for longer periods. It's time to get a pro involved to a load calc for you and determine if it's time to upgrade your panel or if that's even an option.

 

[BogStandard]

Long post incoming...

Hard to tell what is what there by the labelling and what you have at your house. Looks like everything is electric, do you not have any gas appliances? Do you even have gas service available? And wow, does your AC really need 50A?? You live in Florida, so maybe... lol. Mine only has a 30A breaker but I'm in MN, but a lot of new 3 ton units only need 20A breakers now. Maybe updating to a more efficient AC unit could allow that to be downsized a bit.

I'd really start off by getting a new panel circuit label and really go through everything to get an updated and accurate assessment of what each of these breakers serve. I don't think GE has tandem breakers, I think just 1/2" and 1". Looks like all the 120V circuits are 1/2" breakers already. And as Ostrichasak said above, I'd also get an updated load calc for your home. 200A service should be enough to accommodate an EV, but that all depends.

You could combine circuits that don't require dedication like bedrooms and family rooms. A single 20A breaker should be plenty for a few bedrooms. Most houses are only 15A. All 3 bedrooms and living room are on one 15A circuit at my house and it's fine. You may have to convert those to AFCI breakers though as that probably constitutes as circuit modification. Maybe 2 of those kitchen circuits could be combined too, depending on what they serve or how they're used.
A subpanel is an option but gong to be more costly and complicated, especially if it is recessed in block like it looks like your main is. Could always have it surface mounted I suppose.

Lastly, if high powered EV charging is important, I'd see if you can switch a couple appliances to gas so they only need a single 120v breaker. Otherwise consider a 30A circuit, it will probably be enough (nema 14-30).

I drive 120mi/day and only charge at 22 to 24 amps to keep waste heat down and charging efficiency up. It fully recharges in ~6 hrs for me. Plenty fast enough for overnight. I thought I needed a 60 amp circuit for charging, but turns out I only use half what my charging circuit could've provided.
I mean, would recharging in 3 hours vs 6 hours provide any meaningful benefit? That's already too long to wait to go somewhere most likely and I'd head for a supercharger instead if I have to travel that far so soon. I've only had my M3 since June, but I haven't ran into a scenario yet where I get home from a long drive and have to make sure I charge at the full 40 amps (of my EVSE) otherwise I'm screwed.

 

[firstkill]

Im in the process of doing the same, whats the AMP rating of the MAIN? 200?
You will need to do some load calculations if you want 40amps continuous to make sure you dont pull more than the panel can handle.
The Sub panel will not help in this case.

For space, the whole ODD # side seem to be single breakers, 20amp/20amp tandem breakers can make the space, you will need 2 of them to make space for a new 50 AMP 2 pole breaker.

The EVEN sided breakers seem to have some more big use items, Heating/Air. Is washer/drier electric? Stove/Oven/Microwave? Those will be the big ones that take a lot of AMPS, if they are all on at the same time, the MAIN panel may not have enough AMPS to cover all of them plus the 40amp.

2 solutions that should work
1. manage the time of car charging to not run into the other power hungry items
2. maybe just charge at lower amps, 16 for example if thats enough for over night charging.

 

[rjack1282]

Basically, you could free up physical slots with the use of tandem breakers but the main concern is if you have the capacity as in amp capacity even if you free up space. This is a more important aspect to adding something like a 50A breaker since you plan to draw 40A continuously for longer periods. It's time to get a pro involved to a load calc for you and determine if it's time to upgrade your panel or if that's even an option.

Ok thanks for that info.

Hard to tell what is what there by the labelling and what you have at your house. Looks like everything is electric, do you not have any gas appliances? Do you even have gas service available? And wow, does your AC really need 50A?? You live in Florida, so maybe... lol. Mine only has a 30A breaker but I'm in MN, but a lot of new 3 ton units only need 20A breakers now. Maybe updating to a more efficient AC unit could allow that to be downsized a bit.

I agree labeling is not good. I need to go through an sort out what the previous owner's have done. The label on the door is mostly correct but there have been some changes over the years. Yes it takes a lot to cool a 3,000 SF home in Florida. It basically has to run 10 months out of the year and even runs a little bit in those other two months. It has to cycle on and off all day long to keep the house at 74F and deal with humidity. I have a top of the line American Standard system that is only just over a year old so it's about as efficient as possible.

I have zero gas service in my area. I appreciate the other suggestions.

Im in the process of doing the same, whats the AMP rating of the MAIN? 200?
You will need to do some load calculations if you want 40amps continuous to make sure you dont pull more than the panel can handle.
The Sub panel will not help in this case.

For space, the whole ODD # side seem to be single breakers, 20amp/20amp tandem breakers can make the space, you will need 2 of them to make space for a new 50 AMP 2 pole breaker.

Yes 200 amp main. I've been looking but can't seem to find any GE tandem breakers. I have seen some people use 20A/30A tandems to reduce area but GE doesn't seem to make any of those. My thought is to build a subpanel and move enough of the 20A over to that to install a 50A to the subpanel and a 50A for the 14-50.

I've actually sent that picture to two local electricians. The first one quoted $375 for the 14-50 installed right there next to the panel which is where I need it. The second one which I got off Tesla locator, and who knows it's an outlet for a Tesla, quoted $500. So they must have some idea of what they plan to do with the breakers.

I told the first guy the outlet was for my father to plug in his RV when he visits the grandkids a few times each year lol. Looks like easy way to avoid the Tesla tax.

 

[BogStandard]

Ok thanks for that info.


I agree labeling is not good. I need to go through an sort out what the previous owner's have done. The label on the door is mostly correct but there have been some changes over the years. Yes it takes a lot to cool a 3,000 SF home in Florida. It basically has to run 10 months out of the year and even runs a little bit in those other two months. It has to cycle on and off all day long to keep the house at 74F and deal with humidity. I have a top of the line American Standard system that is only just over a year old so it's about as efficient as possible.

I have zero gas service in my area. I appreciate the other suggestions.

Yes 200 amp main. I've been looking but can't seem to find any GE tandem breakers. I have seen some people use 20A/30A tandems to reduce area but GE doesn't seem to make any of those. My thought is to build a subpanel and move enough of the 20A over to that to install a 50A to the subpanel and a 50A for the 14-50.

I've actually sent that picture to two local electricians. The first one quoted $375 for the 14-50 installed right there next to the panel which is where I need it. The second one which I got off Tesla locator, and who knows it's an outlet for a Tesla, quoted $500. So they must have some idea of what they plan to do with the breakers.

I told the first guy the outlet was for my father to plug in his RV when he visits the grandkids a few times each year lol. Looks like easy way to avoid the Tesla tax.

Yeah, that makes sense if you don't have gas service, and I was wondering if it was a larger house.
I really think you could combine something like the Family room and foyer, and 2 of the bedroom circuits to open up 2 slots. They can just be pigtailed together right in the panel. I did a quick search and couldn't find any tandem GE breakers either, so that's what you'd have to do.
I'd bet that's what the electrician will do too. And $375 isn't too bad really, adds peace of mind that if something happens, your hands are clean.
Looks like Florida is still on 2017 NEC code, so you're lucky that 14-50 won't need a GFCI breaker, that would've added ~$150.
MN is on 2020 code so my inspector had me add them for my welder outlets, but my EVSE trips with it, so I just removed the GFCI and receptacle after final inspection and hard wired it. Meets code as installing per manufacturer instructions can override NEC if it's a UL listed device.


Another way to avoid tesla tax is to just say you want to get a welder and need a 6-50 equipment outlet. You won't have the neutral wire for hooking up an RV, but if you never intend to anyway, no biggie, EVSE's don't need it either. My inspector was the typical old grumpy type and I live in a very conservative area and I assumed he was anti-EV, so that's why I installed the 2 "welder" outlets in the garage. So off chance he got all worked up about EVs and started nitpicking everything I was installing, I was hoping that would squelch that.
Wasn't a total lie though, I do intend to get a 240v welder sometime, my little 120v one is pretty limited, and I use that welder circuit now for a garage heater.

 

[Rocky_H]

Looks like Florida is still on 2017 NEC code, so you're lucky that 14-50 won't need a GFCI breaker, that would've added ~$150.

You're thinking of the 2014 version of code, which didn't have that requirement. It was added in the 2017 version, so it's there.

 

[BogStandard]

You're thinking of the 2014 version of code, which didn't have that requirement. It was added in the 2017 version, so it's there.

I don't think so, my house was built at the end of 2018 when we were on the 2017 code, none of the 30 or 50 amp outlets have GFCI.
I'm pretty sure the 2020 code expanded GFCI to every receptacle because that's when the board reviewed the reports of people dying from faulty heavy appliance wiring. In fact when a kid died from faulty wiring in an outdoor condensing unit, I think they removed the receptacle requirement too. That's when all the electrical forums were up in arms about "Big GFI" making a money grab, rather than the code preventing children from dying.
It is annoying GFCI breakers are so damn expensive, but better than dying I suppose.

From MN dept. of labor:

2020 NEC Changes Important: Please refer to the 2020 National Electrical Code for detailed information 1. 210.8(A) GFCI Protection for Personnel: Dwelling Units The changes in 210.8(A) will result in all 125‐volt through 250‐volt receptacles installed at dwelling units supplied by single‐phase branch circuits rated 150‐volts or less to ground be provided with ground‐fault circuit‐interrupter (GFCI) protection for personnel. During the 2020 NEC cycle it was substantiated that 250‐volt receptacle outlets present similar shock hazards as 125‐volt receptacle outlets. This change will impact the typical 240‐volt receptacle outlets for cord‐and‐plug connected dryers, ranges, ovens or similar appliances. This new addition of 250‐volt receptacles, and the removal of any ampere limitation, will require GFCI protection for commonly used receptacle outlets in the specified areas of 210.8(A)(1) through (A)(11):

 

[Rocky_H]

I don't think so, my house was built at the end of 2018 when we were on the 2017 code, none of the 30 or 50 amp outlets have GFCI.

None of those were outlets being installed "for the purpose of charging an electric vehicle", though. I assure you, THAT requirement WAS introduced in the 2017 version of NEC. All of your regular outlets in a house would not have required that from the 2017 version, but the EV charging ones would.

I'm pretty sure the 2020 code expanded GFCI to every receptacle because that's when the board reviewed the reports of people dying from faulty heavy appliance wiring. In fact when a kid died from faulty wiring in an outdoor condensing unit, I think they removed the receptacle requirement too. That's when all the electrical forums were up in arms about "Big GFI" making a money grab, rather than the code preventing children from dying.

That may be a separate issue that I have only vaguely heard about of the GFCI requirement being expanded to a lot more than just EVs in the 2020 revision. I don't know about that.

 

[BogStandard]

None of those were outlets being installed "for the purpose of charging an electric vehicle", though. I assure you, THAT requirement WAS introduced in the 2017 version of NEC. All of your regular outlets in a house would not have required that from the 2017 version, but the EV charging ones would.

That may be a separate issue that I have only vaguely heard about of the GFCI requirement being expanded to a lot more than just EVs in the 2020 revision. I don't know about that.

Ah, true, EV circuits were required, I guess I wasn't thinking about that. I suppose you don't have to say it's an EV circuit though. Like OP said, it's an outlet for his "father to use for his RV when visiting". And since all modern EVSE's seem to have built in GFCI, I think it's unnecessary anyway. I would assume that code was written before it was commonplace.
Either way, code and manufacturers need to collaborate and make a decision as many EVSE's state not to install GFCI breakers. If code is still going to require it no matter what, then manufacturers need to have a selection switch to disable their built in GFCI protection. They can leave their protection enabled by default for people that are connecting to pre-2017/2020 circuits.

And yeah, 2020 basically expanded GFI to everything, I only know that because I put in my garage outlets when it was enforced here, and I'm re-wiring my sisters entire house next spring from her 1950s wiring, so I've been reading a lot of the 2020 code requirements as her city is very strict with it.

 

[rjack1282]

Maybe that was the difference between first quote and Tesla guy quote. The Tesla guy factored in a GFCI breaker. Interesting.

 

[BogStandard]

Maybe that was the difference between first quote and Tesla guy quote. The Tesla guy factored in a GFCI breaker. Interesting.

Yeah, very likely. See if you can get it installed as a non-EV circuit.
The few EVSE's I was looking at said not to install GFCI. The tesla UMC has built in GFI, but it must not do a self check like the wall mounted ones do, because it doesn't trip GFI protected circuits that I've plugged into.

Otherwise if they say you need to, you might be able to just show the electrician the manual of the EVSE you "are going to install" where it states not to install a GFCI breaker.
As long as it's UL listed, I believe it can supersede code if installed per manufacturer. Here's the manual for the EVSE I installed:
Page 10 shows electrical requirements.
https://grizzl-e.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Grizzl-E_Version1_Manual_V12.3.pdf

If I would have known that beforehand, I wouldn't have wasted the $150 on a GFCI breaker.

 

[Rocky_H]

The tesla UMC has built in GFI, but it must not do a self check like the wall mounted ones do, because it doesn't trip GFI protected circuits that I've plugged into.

Yes, it does do that check, but it's not going to always set it off. The amount of current it uses is supposed to be below the GFI threshold, but it's very close. So most of the time it shouldn't, as you have observed, but these can be touchy and out of spec pretty easily, so it's a problem a minority of the time, but much more than it should be.

 

[rjack1282]

More quotes coming in with another at $375 and one at $350. "Tesla guy" quoted $600 to install the TWC. I would obviously supply the TWC.

Three quotes now between $350 and $375 for the local guys installing the "RV" outlet.

 

[BogStandard]

Yes, it does do that check, but it's not going to always set it off. The amount of current it uses is supposed to be below the GFI threshold, but it's very close. So most of the time it shouldn't, as you have observed, but these can be touchy and out of spec pretty easily, so it's a problem a minority of the time, but much more than it should be.

Interesting. I wonder if it uses a lower mA output check because it's not as high powered as a 50/60 amp wall charger, therefore the grounding impedance can be higher. Also interestingly, I found today that grizzl-e makes a version 2 of their charger. That manual states a GFCI breaker will not affect the unit, I wonder if V2 also does a lower mA ground check now that most of the states are on 2017/2020 NEC which requires GFCI for EV circuits.

Three quotes now between $350 and $375 for the local guys installing the "RV" outlet.

Yeah, I'd do that. Sounds reasonable for reconfiguring the panel and getting a receptacle from behind the brick. I'm assuming they're billing ~2hrs @ over $100/hr, plus full retail for components. Hopefully they're installing a Bryant or Hubbell receptacle, they are ~$50, but industrial duty. Critical for frequent plug/unplug cycling.
The $12 home depot receptacles say commercial/industrial, but they are definitely far less robust. The wire terminations are are pretty sub-optimal too.

 

[rjack1282]

Just to close the loop: Apparently GE makes "mini" versions of their 30A and 50A breakers. This of course should have been apparent to me since I already had a mini 50A breaker in the panel. The solution was starring me in the face lol. To be fair the electrician said he had never seen one of these mini GE breakers in his 20 years of experience though.

The electrician replaced the top right 50A with a mini version and moved the top left 30A to the right side with a mini version. He then installed the regular sized 50A for the 14-50 outlet in the top left space that was created. He ran the wire through about 8" of metal (steel?) conduit and mounted the outlet right there next to my panel. Very neat looking job. He was in and out in about an hour. $350 OTD.