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Market reaction to a Metal-Air Hybrid Battery Announcement

Discussion in 'TSLA Investor Discussions' started by TD1, May 13, 2013.

  1. TD1

    TD1 Member

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    We discussed already what Elon might mean with one of his latest tweets "charging faster than refill a gas tank"
    While 90% of the discussion was about batteryswap I would like to focus this thread on the Metal-Air Hybrid.

    In my opinion this is the most exciting announcement Elon could make.
    Lets assume it will be available as an option for the Model S and all future cars.
    That would eliminate the range concerns once and for all.
    Also potential buyers that were concerned about always finding a chargingsstation wouldn't have to worry anymore.

    The fact that Tesla seems to have a Patent on that makes it even more exciting.
    This would put Tesla lightyears ahead of the competition.
    That would allow for a 30k$ 30-40kw GenIII without any range issues.

    So lets assume this will be the case. Would would that mean for TSLA?
    Will the market realize how groundbreaking that is?



    Tesla Patent Applications Reveal Next Generation EV Technology - Seeking Alpha
     
  2. cb32000

    cb32000 Member

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    This is my bet as well
    Here are some best case implementations I put in earlier, I know these are theoretical only but what the heck

    Aluminum Air battery has a theoretical specific energy of 8.14 KWh/Kg and aluminum is about $2200/metric ton.
    In theory the range extender battery could use about 42 Kg of aluminum which is a volume of about 25 cm3.
    This could give a range of about (42Kg*8.14 KWh/Kg)*(265 miles/85 KWh) ~ 1067 miles range.
    The cost of the aluminum is about ($2200/1000 Kg) * (42 Kg) ~ 92 dollars.

    if this is the case, 20 lb self contained modules would be great
     
  3. ToddRLockwood

    ToddRLockwood Active Member

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    #3 ToddRLockwood, May 13, 2013
    Last edited: May 13, 2013
    My money is here as well. Tesla's patent history supports it. (Yes, battery swapping was recently mentioned in an SEC filing, but this could be what was meant by "battery swapping.") That strange space in the rear of the frunk is just a little too weird. It looks like it might have a purpose yet to be announced.
     
  4. Majerus

    Majerus Member

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    Haven't multiple people pulled the model s apart, and never noticed any connection that would suggest the car is capable of a battery in that location? Also would it not be odd to have a battery so far back if things are in the frunk? I think tesla of all companies would think of that being backwards. I love the idea of the metal air battery but just think that location really does not make the case any stronger.
     
  5. EU-P1422

    EU-P1422 Member

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    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378775302003701

    IMHO : maybe as a backup, to limp home. Will still take some time.

    "The design battery energy density is 1300 Wh/kg (present) or 2000 Wh/kg (projected). The cost of battery system chosen to evaluate is US$ 30/kW (present) or US$ 29/kW (projected)."
    (I guess kW should be read as kWh, must be a typo)
     
  6. c041v

    c041v Member

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    Weight distribution and impact protection? It's not a terribly practical space. I would have thought it would work well for another motor, but the announcements don't seem to suggest that.
     
  7. markwj

    markwj Moderator, Asia Pacific

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    Long-term, I see it, but *now* (ie; next week), I'm not so sure. Maybe he'll pre-announce (like all the other people working on metal air chemistries), but I can't believe he's going to have metal air ready this/next year.

    The elephant in the room for all metal air batteries is the recharging capability (or lack thereof).

    The frunk is also wrong for this (as Majerus points out). Can you imagine having to remove all your luggage from the trunk before being able to refuel?
     
  8. dm33

    dm33 Member

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    When is Elon expected to make the announcement?
     
  9. jeff_adams

    jeff_adams Member

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    I'm a believer in this idea. There is already a plastic sleeve located there that goes through the firewall and terminates behind the touchscreen. That is perfect to use as conduit for cables and wires. I don't expect this battery to have enough energy to drive the car on, but it could function as a "trickle charger". This means you will never get stranded and have to tow it in. I think of it like constant regen.

    It also means you could travel to the boonies and not worry about having a plug there. You just use this to charge up the main pack overnight. Range anxiety is a thing of the past.
     
  10. Raffy.Roma

    Raffy.Roma Active Member

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    That space will be used for an engine when the AWD Model S will be produced like it happens for the Model X.
     
  11. Norse

    Norse Active Member

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    is there a paralel investment we should do today except for SCTY and TSLA?
     
  12. Royal TS(LA)

    Royal TS(LA) Member

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    If that's the case, then they probably have left the space unoccupied simply to further enlarge the luggage space.
     
  13. toastypasta

    toastypasta Member

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    check the threads as there is a separate thread titles parallel investments....
     
  14. davidg11

    davidg11 New Member

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    Yeah, and people didn't think he'd have rockets going to space s early as he did. Don't underestimate this guy....he employs rocket scientists!

    lol
     
  15. jeff_adams

    jeff_adams Member

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    A discharge only trickle charge battery should be doable today. It might not be as powerful as Elon would like, but it's got to be swapable by it's very nature, so it will be constantly improved.
     
  16. Royal TS(LA)

    Royal TS(LA) Member

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    Let's say it is a metal-air battery.. then the question is: How much energy does refurbishing of one such battery cost? Considering that the cars are marketed as being green, refurbishing must not cost more energy than any other viable solution. Or else the naysayer armies of this world will take that as an "argument" and shove it into Tesla's face. Can't wait for the official clarification.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Just remembered this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WiTricity

    Could it be this, in conjunction with some secret sauce battery chemistry? They could use the whole battery area for coupling high-power pulses. No need to change the battery. Maybe liquid cooling suffices for that period of time.
     
  17. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    That is why MetalAir modules are/would be just range extenders. They are/would be there those few times a year you need many hundreds miles of range. Removing luggage in frunk is a small sacrifice to get x00 mile range.
    Day-to-day driving, regen, homecharging, free-charging etc would be taken care of by the main battery.

    Yes, that is The Question. MA modules could be somewhat more expensive than gas for the same distance as you only need them occasionally but still not much more. IMHO 10-times higher cost than gas from a star is a max.

    Power should not be a problem. 500 mile pack would need to hold about 150 kWh of energy. At 0,1 discharge rate, it would offer 15 kW of constant charging power. That suffices for 50 mph constant speed.
    At 8kWh/kg it would weigh ~50 pounds (Aluminum + supporting systems). It would also need about 170 pounds or 22 gallons of water but it should go into a separate smaller ~5 gallon tank, you would need to fill every 130 miles or so and somehow remove the waste (hydrated aumina) from the battery.
     
  18. Negaiss

    Negaiss Member

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    Is it possible to charge Metal-Air batteries quickly? I don't know, but you can do this with supercapacitors.
     
  19. EU-P1422

    EU-P1422 Member

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    No, not even with supercapacitors....

    That's why those will be used as a backup if the main battery runs low.
     
  20. jeff_adams

    jeff_adams Member

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    Metal-Air has been described as a use and recycle product. I don't think they will be recharged in a traditional manner.
     

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