Market reaction to a Metal-Air Hybrid Battery Announcement

[TD1]

We discussed already what Elon might mean with one of his latest tweets "charging faster than refill a gas tank"
While 90% of the discussion was about batteryswap I would like to focus this thread on the Metal-Air Hybrid.

In my opinion this is the most exciting announcement Elon could make.
Lets assume it will be available as an option for the Model S and all future cars.
That would eliminate the range concerns once and for all.
Also potential buyers that were concerned about always finding a chargingsstation wouldn't have to worry anymore.

The fact that Tesla seems to have a Patent on that makes it even more exciting.
This would put Tesla lightyears ahead of the competition.
That would allow for a 30k$ 30-40kw GenIII without any range issues.

So lets assume this will be the case. Would would that mean for TSLA?
Will the market realize how groundbreaking that is?

What will likely be swapped is not the main 85 or 60kwh battery pack, but instead a lightweight metal air battery cartridge which will, as in a hybrid, recharge the main battery steadily and on demand.
Probably the connectors are already in place, and will be software activated. Tesla patent apps show a lot of work on hybrid battery arrangements.
A metal air battery cartridge will supplement main battery pack and augment range. Metal air is lighter, and would not require lifts or special equipment for installation: just replace the cartridge.
This would not interfere with supercharging or or other charging of the main battery pack. Elon's comment about "500 mile" range suggests the cartridge could enhance the range by around 200 miles, but some of the info available on metal air batteries suggests it could extend range well beyond that. Such a cartridge will not be necessary for most people"s day to day needs and even some long distances covered by supercharging stations.
Metal Air batteries will not be rechargeable by consumers, so swaps are necessary. You get to keep your original main battery pack.
The hole in the back of the "frunk" compartment would be a logical and convenient location for such a cartridge. Could be swapped out in a minute.
And there it is almost "right under your nose."

Tesla Patent Applications Reveal Next Generation EV Technology - Seeking Alpha

 

[cb32000]

This is my bet as well
Here are some best case implementations I put in earlier, I know these are theoretical only but what the heck

Aluminum Air battery has a theoretical specific energy of 8.14 KWh/Kg and aluminum is about $2200/metric ton.
In theory the range extender battery could use about 42 Kg of aluminum which is a volume of about 25 cm3.
This could give a range of about (42Kg*8.14 KWh/Kg)*(265 miles/85 KWh) ~ 1067 miles range.
The cost of the aluminum is about ($2200/1000 Kg) * (42 Kg) ~ 92 dollars.

if this is the case, 20 lb self contained modules would be great

 

[ToddRLockwood]

My money is here as well. Tesla's patent history supports it. (Yes, battery swapping was recently mentioned in an SEC filing, but this could be what was meant by "battery swapping.") That strange space in the rear of the frunk is just a little too weird. It looks like it might have a purpose yet to be announced.

 

[Majerus]

My money is here as well. Tesla's patent history supports it. (Yes, battery swapping was recently mentioned in an SEC filing, but this could be what was meant by "battery swapping.") That strange space in the rear of the frunk is just a little too weird.

Haven't multiple people pulled the model s apart, and never noticed any connection that would suggest the car is capable of a battery in that location? Also would it not be odd to have a battery so far back if things are in the frunk? I think tesla of all companies would think of that being backwards. I love the idea of the metal air battery but just think that location really does not make the case any stronger.

 

[EU-P1422]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378775302003701

IMHO : maybe as a backup, to limp home. Will still take some time.

"The design battery energy density is 1300 Wh/kg (present) or 2000 Wh/kg (projected). The cost of battery system chosen to evaluate is US$ 30/kW (present) or US$ 29/kW (projected)."
(I guess kW should be read as kWh, must be a typo)

 

[c041v]

Also would it not be odd to have a battery so far back if things are in the frunk? I think tesla of all companies would think of that being backwards. I love the idea of the metal air battery but just think that location really does not make the case any stronger.

Weight distribution and impact protection? It's not a terribly practical space. I would have thought it would work well for another motor, but the announcements don't seem to suggest that.

 

[markwj]

Long-term, I see it, but *now* (ie; next week), I'm not so sure. Maybe he'll pre-announce (like all the other people working on metal air chemistries), but I can't believe he's going to have metal air ready this/next year.

The elephant in the room for all metal air batteries is the recharging capability (or lack thereof).

The frunk is also wrong for this (as Majerus points out). Can you imagine having to remove all your luggage from the trunk before being able to refuel?

 

[dm33]

When is Elon expected to make the announcement?

 

[jeff_adams]

I'm a believer in this idea. There is already a plastic sleeve located there that goes through the firewall and terminates behind the touchscreen. That is perfect to use as conduit for cables and wires. I don't expect this battery to have enough energy to drive the car on, but it could function as a "trickle charger". This means you will never get stranded and have to tow it in. I think of it like constant regen.

It also means you could travel to the boonies and not worry about having a plug there. You just use this to charge up the main pack overnight. Range anxiety is a thing of the past.

 

[Raffy.Roma]

That strange space in the rear of the frunk is just a little too weird. It looks like it might have a purpose yet to be announced.

That space will be used for an engine when the AWD Model S will be produced like it happens for the Model X.

 

[Norse]

is there a paralel investment we should do today except for SCTY and TSLA?

 

[Royal TS(LA)]

That space will be used for an engine when the AWD Model S will be produced like it happens for the Model X.

If that's the case, then they probably have left the space unoccupied simply to further enlarge the luggage space.

 

[toastypasta]

is there a paralel investment we should do today except for SCTY and TSLA?

check the threads as there is a separate thread titles parallel investments....

 

[davidg11]

Yeah, and people didn't think he'd have rockets going to space s early as he did. Don't underestimate this guy....he employs rocket scientists!

lol

 

[jeff_adams]

A discharge only trickle charge battery should be doable today. It might not be as powerful as Elon would like, but it's got to be swapable by it's very nature, so it will be constantly improved.

 

[Royal TS(LA)]

Let's say it is a metal-air battery.. then the question is: How much energy does refurbishing of one such battery cost? Considering that the cars are marketed as being green, refurbishing must not cost more energy than any other viable solution. Or else the naysayer armies of this world will take that as an "argument" and shove it into Tesla's face. Can't wait for the official clarification.

- - - Updated - - -

Just remembered this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WiTricity

Could it be this, in conjunction with some secret sauce battery chemistry? They could use the whole battery area for coupling high-power pulses. No need to change the battery. Maybe liquid cooling suffices for that period of time.

 

[WarpedOne]

The elephant in the room for all metal air batteries is the recharging capability (or lack thereof).

That is why MetalAir modules are/would be just range extenders. They are/would be there those few times a year you need many hundreds miles of range. Removing luggage in frunk is a small sacrifice to get x00 mile range.
Day-to-day driving, regen, homecharging, free-charging etc would be taken care of by the main battery.

How much energy does refurbishing of one such battery cos

Yes, that is The Question. MA modules could be somewhat more expensive than gas for the same distance as you only need them occasionally but still not much more. IMHO 10-times higher cost than gas from a star is a max.

It might not be as powerful as Elon would like,

Power should not be a problem. 500 mile pack would need to hold about 150 kWh of energy. At 0,1 discharge rate, it would offer 15 kW of constant charging power. That suffices for 50 mph constant speed.
At 8kWh/kg it would weigh ~50 pounds (Aluminum + supporting systems). It would also need about 170 pounds or 22 gallons of water but it should go into a separate smaller ~5 gallon tank, you would need to fill every 130 miles or so and somehow remove the waste (hydrated aumina) from the battery.

 

[Negaiss]

Is it possible to charge Metal-Air batteries quickly? I don't know, but you can do this with supercapacitors.

 

[EU-P1422]

Is it possible to charge Metal-Air batteries quickly?

No, not even with supercapacitors....

That's why those will be used as a backup if the main battery runs low.

 

[jeff_adams]

Metal-Air has been described as a use and recycle product. I don't think they will be recharged in a traditional manner.