MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

[TimothyHW3]

the high density cells in the E3D packs

Could be, but that would mean they have to make a 4th type of battery pack with the new cells just for that LR E3D, why bother?

And while they are adding a new 4th variant, why not just hardware lock it (put less cells), instead of putting 4-5kWh more and soft locking them? If you multiply that by 100,000 or so cars that is at least 50 Million $ in extra batteries just thrown out the window. And Tesla is known for removing floor matts and baggage hooks just to save cash...

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Remember - the only reason we have the LG is, because Panasonic couldn't make enough of these dense cells, so if they had enough dense cells, they would've just put 82 on all cars.

The only real explanation is that these, now soft locked, batteries must surely be the battery they have been putting since around Q3, a new variant P which is 2 itterations later than my old one (I know in early 2020 they had a N-Variant, because I have seen one so this is a newer one)

It also seems that at some point in November (at least in European cars) they stopped putting Panasonic E3D batteries and started puting only or predominantly LG batteries. So the tactics might be to run with LG in LR and Panasonic 82 in Performance until they can build the fat cells themselves and ditch all the bozos.

OR
Panasonic has finished the ramp up and Tesla starts putting only 82 in all LR cars. It is anyone's guess.

 

[FredMt]

Personally, I am very disappointed and I cannot accept battery to be capped, we bought the car, the battery with it and we carry this battery all the time in the car, but we re not allowed to use all the capacity ! It's absurd! Indeed, it could be even more disappointing to see that in addition Europe is not treated in the same way as the US while we buy the same product. But honestly on the contrary I'm very happy for US users. For Europe, I think there should have been 2
variants, even with different price, where's the problem? Anyway Tesla does handle the variant. So what ? Tesla made the choice to hide things rather than to manage them openly.
I hope that in 2021 a real variant will appear: "Long Range +" with a pack of 82kWh!

 

[FredMt]

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Remember - the only reason we have the LG is, because Panasonic couldn't make enough of these dense cells, so if they had enough dense cells, they would've just put 82 on all cars.

For me it s not a simply question of production of Panasonic dense cells specificaly , it s about Panasonic cells globally and more generaly avalability of cells in differents areas to feet with EV production. Yes i know, situation is not ideal at the moment.
It s a question of cost too, LG battery cost less i think.

OR
Panasonic has finished the ramp up and Tesla starts putting only 82 in all LR cars. It is anyone's guess.

Yes but perhaps not only 82, simply new cells in LR E3D existing packages and production lines.
And no more old cells, so no more variant after transition.

 

[FredMt]

I have charged to

I charged to 91% and got 308 miles, so that suggests 308/.91 = 338.5 range? Also I have attached a very low resolution photo of the battery sticker, I am not sure how to improve the picture yet. But, it looks like Made in USA.View attachment 623126

So it s a better range ! About 545 km estimated from 91% It s ok... for European area (don t compare range with US LR you will be disappointed)
About sticker, yes we know pack made in US, what is more interesting is reference of the pack itsef. It does not matter if you can t improve resolution, thanks to have try.

 

[TimothyHW3]

About 545 km estimated from 91% It s ok.

That is really temperature dependent and how well the battery is balanced. I think the most you can have out of these batteries is around 551km maybe a little more if they calculate with 136.5 instead of 137 (13.7*5.51 is around 75.4-75.5kWh)
Mine showed 550km when I charged to full.

 

[FredMt]

@TimothyHW3
@AlanSubie4Life
European LR 2021 E3D that seems to be not capped.
Let s take a look at range...

Übersicht 2021 LR / P Batteriekapazität Fahrzeugschein

 

[TimothyHW3]

European LR 2021 E3D that seems to be not capped.
Let s take a look at range..

It's capped. If you look at my video, those are the same values I have.

What he fails to understand is that while the nominal full will show 77.5 or so(mine is 77.6, 2.5kWh capped), but the nominal full "remaining" will be about 75-75.5 when he charges to 100%(actually "nominal expected" is what the real value is. The expected is for example the value the battery is locked when the snowflake appears, but this is OT)


And he doesn't even need to charge to 100% - he simply needs to switch to the All tab, check the nominal remaining (or expected), pull the limit on his car to 100%, wait 4-5 seconds and see what the "to charge complete" value is.

Then he calculates nominal remaining+ to charge complete - this is the value the car will charge to @100% and I bet you the result will not be higher than 75.5, most likely 75!

Another indication is that the SOC% values on SMT don't match the car display on a LR E3D, but they fit perfectly on the E5D. The reason being, because SOC% is a calculation and not a value coming from the BMS. And since SMT falsely assumes the total nominal full is available (which is not) it calculates the SOC to about 3% less from the car display. This is also why the rated range values don't work on E3D(another value not coming from the BMS, but from calculation). SMT shows 566 rated km whereas we have 550km - because the SOC% is wrong. Also explained in the video.

I think good old Alan here has done a disservice to a lot of people by falsely summarizing my video... Because I explained all of this in the video so make sure and go back to rewatch it - it will save us a lot of questions like that.

 

[FredMt]

It's capped. If you look at my video, those are the same values I have.

What he fails to understand is that while the nominal full will show 77.5 or so(mine is 77.6, 2.5kWh capped), but the nominal full "remaining" will be about 75-75.5 when he charges to 100%(actually "nominal expected" is what the real value is. The expected is for example the value the battery is locked when the snowflake appears, but this is OT)

And he doesn't even need to charge to 100% - he simply needs to switch to the All tab, check the nominal remaining (or expected), pull the limit on his car to 100%, wait 4-5 seconds and see what the "to charge complete" value is.

Then he calculates nominal remaining+ to charge complete - this is the value the car will charge to @100% and I bet you the result will not be higher than 75.5, most likely 75!

Another indication is that the SOC% values on SMT don't match the car display on a LR E3D, but they fit perfectly on the E5D. The reason being, because SOC% is a calculation and not a value coming from the BMS. And since SMT falsely assumes the total nominal full is available (which is not) it calculates the SOC to about 3% less from the car display. This is also why the rated range values don't work on E3D(another value not coming from the BMS, but from calculation). SMT shows 566 rated km whereas we have 550km - because the SOC% is wrong. Also explained in the video.

Thank's
Yes, it's on the video, I understood. There was data there and I couldn't see. I do not know the way which SMT calculates, you just answered on certain calculation because it does not read everything and it calculates / extrapolates values, that I understood it.

So except case you have picture with 100% charge or doing what you said in your post because you have the car and SMT, is it possible to know if battery is capped or not by simply have picture with some good parameters values (not at 100% of charge). For example is it possible to use difference between "nominal remaining" and "usable remaining" or perhaps an other calculation with data from SMT.

 

[TimothyHW3]

usable remaining

Usable remaining is a bit misleading. This is the value to 0%, but there is more "usable".

The available kWh remaining is the value SMT calls "expected remaining"- this is the whole usable in the battery according to the BMS.

And expected remaining + to charge complete to 100% is the total capacity. And this value amounts to 75-75.5kWh roughly on the E3D. Ask him on that forum to show you expected remaining + to charge complete (when limit set to 100%) and you will see that it is capped.

 

[eivissa]

Not having read the last days, but here in Germany we just measured a 2021 Performance with 81KWH. The highest value I've seen so far.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I think good old Alan here has done a disservice to a lot of people by falsely summarizing my video... Because I explained all of this in the video so make sure and go back to rewatch it - it will save us a lot of questions like that.

I actually included this information in my summary:

Regarding reports in this thread from European owners who saw values consistent with 77.6kWh when charged to 100%:
2021 Model 3 - Charge data

In this link, you can see the car was not actually charged to 100%. To see the soft lock, you have to actually charge to 100% (and you'll find that at 100% SoC the Nominal Remaining will be less than Nominal Full Pack by a few kWh).

So not sure what the problem is with that summary. (Saying 100% SoC is confusing, I know - it will actually show 96% or whatever in SMT, as in your video - but will show 100% in the car GUI.)

As you mentioned, you also do not have to charge to 100%, either (as I said above) - you can use the remaining energy to charge complete and add to the nominal/expected remaining, when slider is set to 100%. But if you don’t believe that (no reason not to but some doubt may remain), you need to charge to 100% and you’ll see your SoC is limited. In SMT. Not in the in-car GUI. As you said.

If you need me to resummarize the video I can. It is just a bit long and there is some (very annoying) music playing. Can probably do a more succinct summary now.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Not having read the last days, but here in Germany we just measured a 2021 Performance with 81KWH. The highest value I've seen so far.

View attachment 623193

That is a great battery. Did they report the car-calculated (not SMT) maximum rated range at that level (this capture was not at 100%)? It’s great to get info on the spread of initial capacities. To some extent this explains different degradation results over time (but only part of the story there).

There was also a report of 82kWh on Facebook, but I have not seen the evidence posted (obviously someone could have been confused by the 82.1kWh “when new” value, which is not related to the battery capacity).

 

[eivissa]

81KWH => 498 km Full Rated Range

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

is it possible to know if battery is capped or not by simply have picture with some good parameters values (not at 100% of charg

Sounds like you were assuming SMT here. But it was really pretty clear early on in this thread that the E3D batteries were top locked in software, due to the extraordinary amount of regen at 100%, regardless of temperature. I assume that if we get a capture from an E5D at 100%, you won’t see nearly as much regen.

The confusion rested mostly in misinterpretation of SMT parameters, which @TimothyHW3 clarified and has described how they work for a soft lock.

Obviously tricky to draw conclusions at this time of year if it shows no regen, but if you have significant regen at 100%, at any temperature, that’s an indicator you’re at more like 96%, for sure. You really don’t have any significant regen on a battery charged to 100% (easy for any older vehicle owner to verify).

Personally I am curious what 2021 Performance batteries show for regen at 100%. I would also like to see cell voltage on the Performance at 100%. Just curious if it is at close to 4.2V or not. It’s clearly not as soft locked as the 75kWh on a 77.8kWh battery, but wondering if they have a mild top lock. It might be a “harder” lock than the Panasonic 77.8kWh cells though. Since it is for safety. So they may not allow regen above 81kWh, unlike with the soft locked 75/77.8kWh batteries (which look like they can be regenerated up to 77.8kWh if you towed them).

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

81KWH => 498 km Full Rated Range

Is there a picture of the in-car GUI of this vehicle at 100% (showing distance)? Also is there an SMT cell voltage capture at 100%?

I ask because I am curious about where (if anywhere) the displayed range is capped. It sounds like it is capped at 498km. (Because 81.0kWh/162Wh/km is 500km.)

This is apparently normal for Tesla. There is a certain cap on rated range displayed for any vehicle, no matter how much energy it has. But always nice to get confirmation. We know at this point that the constant does not exceed 162Wh/km on the Performance, I think. (I think there are hints it is closer to 161.7Wh/rkm as I recall.)

 

[Tslrsx]

Almost no regen for my m3p, battery at 99% and 19-19,5°c

 

[Korgmatose]

Is there a picture of the in-car GUI of this vehicle at 100% (showing distance)? Also is there an SMT cell voltage capture at 100%?

I ask because I am curious about where (if anywhere) the displayed range is capped. It sounds like it is capped at 498km. (Because 81.0kWh/162Wh/km is 500km.)

This is apparently normal for Tesla. There is a certain cap on rated range displayed for any vehicle, no matter how much energy it has. But always nice to get confirmation. We know at this point that the constant does not exceed 162Wh/km on the Performance, I think.

Bjørn N did the 100% M3P 2021 on SuC in the last livestream of 2020. and nominal full / remaining kept creeping up to 80.6kWh when charging was still running at 1-3 kW for almost 30 minutes, displayed Range was 498-499

About 1h30 in

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Almost no regen for my m3p, battery at 99% and 19-19,5°cView attachment 623235

Thanks. Yeah, that is basically zero. As I said, for a safety lock, I’d expect more of a hard cap here. So would not expect regen. The lock in the European Panasonics is a GUI lock only, not for safety. (Battery is shown at ~96% SoC in SMT at 100% in the GUI.). So it would behave differently.

We really need the individual cell voltages at “100%” to see whether there is any possibility of a future slight increase in unlocked capacity (I would expect no more than 1kWh more). Has to be close to open-circuit cell voltages (not being charged).

 

[sirld]

That is really temperature dependent and how well the battery is balanced. I think the most you can have out of these batteries is around 551km maybe a little more if they calculate with 136.5 instead of 137 (13.7*5.51 is around 75.4-75.5kWh)
Mine showed 550km when I charged to full.

Hi,

I definitely would like to get the 580km that Tesla is advertising, are we collecting information that could be used to hopefully get to that level? In any case, I have a better picture now, so Type BB (P) 1104423 00 P (if I am reading it properly). I can probably get a better shot tomorrow during day time, but hopefully this is good enough.

 

[Marius A]

This is a Norwegian with his TM3P