MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

[AlanSubie4Life]

Lots of great info in here, but I think we need more data from different configurations.

I agree. It seems difficult to get good data from users. That is why @TimothyHW3’s video was nice (when condensed, lol!) - had a lot of comparative info in one place.

Data needed:
Battery Code
Battery label
Charge speed
We seem to have capacity nailed down now
Etc.

As I have said before, would not be surprised at all if the new Panasonic cells were currently really restricted on charge rate - would make a lot of sense for them to be slow right now. That being said, really hard to get the battery very warm this time of year. Maybe drive at high speed for a couple hours or leave it on an L2 preconditioning for a couple hours. I guess the new software lets you precondition without being plugged in, too?

Got my M3 in Europe few weeks back, came from China with LFP CATL batteries

Do you have an SR?

However, the Performance suffers from discharge issues when nearing and going below 23-25%, ie Limp Mode deluxe...

? No idea what this means.

 

[derotam]

Dear all, the moderator moved my thread into here but it is now lost ..so posting again so that is breathes again before being suffocated

China with LFP CATL battery - Three Main Issues
Got my M3 in Europe few weeks back, came from China with LFP CATL batteries only to realize below issues, started with tesla forums only to realize that communication flow was being blocked so trying to see explore this new platform and find out others are also impacted and suggestions on how to address


1) Charges super slow even at fast 150 kw V2 Tesla super chargers at 32kw, 2.5x slower than other US M3 and on 50 kw DC faster charges 12kw 4 times slower than US made M3
2) Can not charge 100% , first stopped at 85% , now at 94%. Battery levels show surge later but never exceed 94%
3) Range is low, but given the above issues , it is difficult to say what is the real range and in a cold start 5C , the energy meter hill goes beyond the 600 kw top limit..

Now please do not tell me pre-heat the battery and check the cables, i have already done and i have booked a service appointment the same day i picked my car but the fist free slot was month out. and i have compared my car neck to neck to other cars charging on the parallel station

My question is

1) Am i the only unfortunate one , i mean i love the car in all aspects but i can not live with especially as i live in an apartment and need to charge fast and i live in Europe though average temp is still 5 C
2) what could be the re-course, i off course will wait for my service appointment and then decide what consumer rights i have if not fixed

Car is perfect otherwise, no issues, great build quality , no panel gaps but charging and range which to be are at the heart of electric cars as an engine is for a petrol car.

Now the issue could be firmware updates or calibration but then i am surprised how are new cars sold in winter for cor cold Europe without basic testing causing agony to new buyers or the so called range anxiety.

and users from tesla forums , please do not pitch as you have heard at length my story, want to hear a new perspective of other real users , please refrain from sme advise as i have my service appointment booked and all details shared here have been shared with tesla with pictures and charts and comparisons .and as we speak Tesla is looking at my request, so no panic, yet...

Thanks a lot and wishing you all a new happy new year

I will not share images as i see those are being misused by other users , my intent is educate and fix , not otherwise

As I told you over at the other forum, without data people cannot begin to help you. If you want help there are lots of people here that are happy to help, myself included, but we need data. Also as I said, I am not saying there isn't a problem with the LFP battery, but that is TBD and so far there are strong indications that temperature is having a major impact on your charging ability.

Your issue #2 was mostly addressed by the warning message displayed in your now removed picture.

Your issue #3 in regards to the energy meter is going to be related to heating the cabin and/or battery pre-conditioning if you routed to the supercharger.

To everyone else, some background:

The OP had provided a picture which they have now taken down that showed part of the warning that says the supercharger has changed the SOC charge limit due to the busy supercharger. This probably at least partially accounts for his issue #2.

The same picture showed that it was 4C outside while he was supercharging. I asked for a picture of his energy bar that would have shown whether or not the battery was warm but the OP never provided that information. If there are dots on the left side of the energy bar I can give a pretty accurate estimate to the battery temperature(within 1C).

The OP also never mentioned that he had "pre-heat" ed the battery but now claims to have done so but again won't show the energy bar.

The Tesla's that the OP was comparing to at the supercharger were also having charging issues evidently, as they were only getting about 68kW at low SOC's. Again, presumably, that was due to cold batteries as with their SOC's as reported by the OP they should have been close to the 150kW max from that station.

 

[TomaGo]

Hello, thanks to the last information (thanks everybody for this) i did an update of our battery picture, here it is. Tell me if you think it is good.

 

[Marius A]

No idea what this means.

After he latest sw updates he TM3P is severely throttled when you get down below ~20-25% rated range.
Above 60km/h it's easily as slow s he SR+ (slow being used relatively here).
I couldn't overtake a hyundai ioniq on a stretch where I can usually blast past 4-5 cars (safely)

Could this be how they increased the WLTP rating that much on the P?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Could this be how they increased the WLTP rating that much on the P?

No. The WLTP and EPA tests use so little power this would never be relevant. Remember that vehicles with minuscule HP numbers have to be able to perform the test.

Regarding the discharge rate capping - that wouldn't be surprising for a new battery either. Someone should do a drag race at 20% SoC for each vehicle (2018/2019 vs. 2021).

I've asked if this could be done, in this thread.

 

[camalaio]

Hello, thanks to the last information (thanks everybody for this) i did an update of our battery picture, here it is. Tell me if you think it is good.

View attachment 622499

Thanks for this, I was just about to ask if someone has a tl;dr version of the last 21 pages of info.

So basically, the situation is 2021 models are being advertised as higher range (and implied higher capacity based on past news), but it's either actually the same energy capacity or worse? And may even charge slower? And I'm assuming real-world (not rated) efficiency is about the same? (excluding cold conditions w/ new heat pump).

Initially had a bit of FOMO thinking there were new higher capacity batteries around. I guess not?

 

[Marius A]

Thanks for this, I was just about to ask if someone has a tl;dr version of the last 21 pages of info.

So basically, the situation is 2021 models are being advertised as higher range (and implied higher capacity based on past news), but it's either actually the same energy capacity or worse? And may even charge slower? And I'm assuming real-world (not rated) efficiency is about the same? (excluding cold conditions w/ new heat pump).

Initially had a bit of FOMO thinking there were new higher capacity batteries around. I guess not?

We don't know yet,not enough data.
The slow charging pretty much started after Bjørn Nyland made a video driving cross-country in a leased 2021 LR with the new LG E5D battery. His charging speeds weren't awesome.
However,several users on different forums have reported excellent speeds on their LG battery LRs, but they haven't been as thorough as Nyland.
We have an idea that the LG is lower capacity and that they're managing to hit the right numbers with less kWh than before, but we're still at amateur detective level.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

So basically, the situation is 2021 models are being advertised as higher range (and implied higher capacity based on past news), but it's either actually the same energy capacity or worse? And may even charge slower? And I'm assuming real-world (not rated) efficiency is about the same? (excluding cold conditions w/ new heat pump).

Initially had a bit of FOMO thinking there were new higher capacity batteries around. I guess not

Yeah, sorry, lots of back and forth. Current summary, I think:

WLTP 580km now vs. 560km (2019) before. (560km/0.93 * 75kWh/77.8kWh)

AWD in Europe has capped capacity at ~75kWh (for LG "E5D" batteries that's 100%, Panasonic "E3D" have 77.8kWh but are software capped at ~75kWh). That ends up being displayed at about 550km EPA in the car.

AWD in 2020 had 77.8kWh when new. Again, AWD (in Europe) in 2021 has ~75kWh (capped).

Efficiency of 2019/2020/2021 with latest software (and not using climate control/heat pump) are probably all pretty similar, of course (based on comparison of 2020 Performance 18" vs. 2021 AWD 18" in EPA testing, they are very close to the same).

Note the 560km WLTP was probably done on a 2019 with 7% lower efficiency, with that software build. Now that same vehicle would get about 600km WLTP, probably.

Higher capacity batteries: Most reported 2021 Performance packs have over 80kWh of capacity (highest has been 80.6kWh or so?). There are a few reports as low as 79-79.5kWh, which is still considerably higher than any AWD. These are clearly the new -0L- denser Panasonic cells. They may have more capacity that can still be unlocked in future ("Full Pack When New" value is 82.1kWh which gives a hint of what may be possible!).

In the US, all reported 2021 AWDs (non-P) have ~77.8kWh of capacity. (no cap) Ends up being displayed as about 568km EPA in the car.

Charging speeds: Might be capped for now, and may depend on the battery type (E3D, E5D, or larger Performance pack may all be different). This is hard to judge at this time of year.

 

[Marius A]

.
Higher capacity batteries: Most reported 2021 Performance packs have over 80kWh of capacity (highest has been 80.6kWh or so?).

A Norwegian 2021 TM3P owner shared SMT pics showing 82kW on FB

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

A Norwegian 2021 TM3P owner shared SMT pics showing 82kW on FB

Link, or screen capture? And you're sure it was not the "Full Pack When New" value (which is 82.1kWh on every 2021 Performance reported so far)?

I'm not saying 82kWh is not possible, even if there is more energy to unlock still - there's a distribution of initial capacities after all - but so far that doesn't seem to be the median value. I'd expect that if there is additional capacity being withheld for now, maybe 82kWh for median initial capacity would become more normal in future, with outliers for "Nominal Full Pack" up to 83+kWh (after that unlock).

After all, if 79.5kWh is possible (we've seen at least two such reports) with median value initial capacity of 80.5kWh, then 81.5kWh (or even 82kWh) could easily happen for the "lucky" ones.

Would be great to see a verified outlier like this, in any case!

In the past, as far as I can tell, the median "Nominal Full Pack" new pack capacity has been quite close to the "Full Pack When New" value. That's not the case for the Performance.

 

[TimothyHW3]

New After he latest sw updates he TM3P is severely throttled when you get down below ~20-25% rated range.

You sure it was after the update and is not something to do with the temperature in Norway? Driving at 100 in below 0 will barely heat up the battery and now with the heat pump sucking from it you can get very low on temp, below 17°

 

[TimothyHW3]

However,several users on different forums have reported excellent speeds on their LG

There is no such thing as "excellent speeds" on LG. This has been tested enough - the LGs charge slower than the Panasonic batteries new or old.

I guess if you come from an IONIQ you will find the charging speed excellent, but from old Model 3 it is 5-10 minutes slower depending on the charge curve you get.

 

[TimothyHW3]

So basically, the situation is 2021 models are being advertised as higher range (and implied higher capacity based on past news), but it's either actually the same energy capacity or worse?

Basically there are 3 batteries floating around - Panasonic old one, soft locked, Panasonic new one 6kWh more, LG new one same capacity as soft locked Panasonic.

And so far this is only for Europe, no idea what is being delivered elsewhere.

Plus you have LG SR+(apperantly according to documents in Europe), Panasonic SR+ and LFP SR+ from China.

Tesla can't get enough batteries so it is a mess.

 

[Marius A]

There is no such thing as "excellent speeds" on LG. This has been tested enough - the LGs charge slower than the Panasonic batteries new or old.

I guess if you come from an IONIQ you will find the charging speed excellent, but from old Model 3 it is 5-10 minutes slower depending on the charge curve you get.

I'm not sure whyou you meet every post with disbelief and talking down people, it's really infuriating. You have a lot of good content but you're making people hate you.

I've had 3 model 3's, one LR AWD early 2019, one TM3P 2020 late December 2020, and now I have a 2021 TM3P. My fiancé has had an i3 94Ah, a 2016 Zoe and now she has a 2017 Ioniq.
So yes, I know the difference of charging on 230/16, on 230/32x3 (which translates to 230/21x3 on IT grids because of the TM3's on-board charger). I know about 400V/16Ax3 TN charging, and why you need to calculate with sqrt(3) on IT grids.
I've got years of experience with 40kW fast chargers, Tesla Superchargers and more recently Ionity stations.

We haven't had sub-zero temperatures since I got my 2021, it's been 3-8 degrees Celsius. My data is based on comparing with my 2 previous TM3 I drove for 18+ months. Or do you think the 2021 TM3P takes longer to heat than the 2020?

Based on your responses to other people I'm quite certain you won't properly read, or even dwell on the contents of this post. It's my loss for trying to defend myself from blind critique

 

[camalaio]

Yeah, sorry, lots of back and forth. Current summary, I think:

WLTP 580km now vs. 560km (2019) before. (560km/0.93 * 75kWh/77.8kWh)

AWD in Europe has capped capacity at ~75kWh (for LG "E5D" batteries that's 100%, Panasonic "E3D" have 77.8kWh but are software capped at ~75kWh). That ends up being displayed at about 550km EPA in the car.

AWD in 2020 had 77.8kWh when new. Again, AWD (in Europe) in 2021 has ~75kWh (capped).

Efficiency of 2019/2020/2021 with latest software (and not using climate control/heat pump) are probably all pretty similar, of course (based on comparison of 2020 Performance 18" vs. 2021 AWD 18" in EPA testing, they are very close to the same).

Note the 560km WLTP was probably done on a 2019 with 7% lower efficiency, with that software build. Now that same vehicle would get about 600km WLTP, probably.

Higher capacity batteries: Most reported 2021 Performance packs have over 80kWh of capacity (highest has been 80.6kWh or so?). There are a few reports as low as 79-79.5kWh, which is still considerably higher than any AWD. These are clearly the new -0L- denser Panasonic cells. They may have more capacity that can still be unlocked in future ("Full Pack When New" value is 82.1kWh which gives a hint of what may be possible!).

In the US, all reported 2021 AWDs (non-P) have ~77.8kWh of capacity. (no cap) Ends up being displayed as about 568km EPA in the car.

Charging speeds: Might be capped for now, and may depend on the battery type (E3D, E5D, or larger Performance pack may all be different). This is hard to judge at this time of year.

Thanks for the quality summary, as always.

I wonder if LR (non-P) models are just absorbing old stock while they deliver the "better" ones for Performance models, But that doesn't make sense either, because of the new LG packs. Just when I thought things were starting to make sense with displayed range, this all happens

I'm not sure whyou you meet every post with disbelief and talking down people, it's really infuriating. You have a lot of good content but you're making people hate you.

I've had 3 model 3's, one LR AWD early 2019, one TM3P 2020 late December 2020, and now I have a 2021 TM3P. My fiancé has had an i3 94Ah, a 2016 Zoe and now she has a 2017 Ioniq.
So yes, I know the difference of charging on 230/16, on 230/32x3 (which translates to 230/21x3 on IT grids because of the TM3's on-board charger). I know about 400V/16Ax3 TN charging, and why you need to calculate with sqrt(3) on IT grids.
I've got years of experience with 40kW fast chargers, Tesla Superchargers and more recently Ionity stations.

We haven't had sub-zero temperatures since I got my 2021, it's been 3-8 degrees Celsius. My data is based on comparing with my 2 previous TM3 I drove for 18+ months. Or do you think the 2021 TM3P takes longer to heat than the 2020?

Based on your responses to other people I'm quite certain you won't properly read, or even dwell on the contents of this post. It's my loss for trying to defend myself from blind critique

@TimothyHW3 I have to agree with this. And to be fair, it's a thing I needed to learn as well. But we're all just trying to learn new things here. Talking down has gotten really old and isn't helping anyone learn, except to feel small and run away from the community.

Anyhow. So with recent software (not necessarily recent models), 3-8 degrees would be nearly worst case anyways if the batteries were allowed to reach the lower temps. At that point it's all snowflakes and limitations. Though I have to also agree with the above take that it's winter, and very hard to get good data on any of this as a result.

Sub-zero mostly makes things like the heating behaviour more apparent, or gets you to cold soaked state faster. But at 3 degrees C on the battery, you'll see nearly the full impact of it being cold anyways.

 

[Marius A]

@camala I actually haven't had snowflake in this car yet, but as for my SuC testing:
First test was 30+ mins driving between 60 and 90km/h before going on a highway doing 100-110 km/h and preconditioning for 25 minutes. Didn't go above 70kW, started at around 25-30% range
Today the car was in a workshop for 1.5 hours,inside temperature was 12-13 degrees without pre-heating, then 15 minute preconditioning while driving 110km/h and I never got more than 44kW, charged from 30% to over 70%

The slow-down when the car gets down to ~200km range is really real. There are 2 stretches between home and work which are 80km/h speed limit but people tend to do 60, so pretty much every day I overtake other cars within 2-3 minutes away from home, no pre-heat.

I think/hope Alan is on to something, sw limiting the new battery until they have enough data.

 

[FredMt]

We don't know yet,not enough data.
The slow charging pretty much started after Bjørn Nyland made a video driving cross-country in a leased 2021 LR with the new LG E5D battery. His charging speeds weren't awesome.
However,several users on different forums have reported excellent speeds on their LG battery LRs, but they haven't been as thorough as Nyland.
We have an idea that the LG is lower capacity and that they're managing to hit the right numbers with less kWh than before, but we're still at amateur detective level.

For me bad charging speed of LG E5D pack is confirmed : French user of TM3 LR 2021 with LG E5D pack report exactly same Bjorn bad curve of charge(see first curve below) 28 minutes from 8% to 69%.
No need to talk about supercharger V3 under these conditions ...
For now, LG E5D is only for Europe market.

And below curve of Bjorn

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

French user of TM3 LR 2021 with LG E5D pack report exatly same Bjorn bad curve of charge.
28 minutes from 8% to 69%.
No need to talk about supercharger V3 under these conditions ...
For now, LG E5D is only for Europe market.

View attachment 622610

And below curve of Bjorn
View attachment 622612

I would be mildly surprised if this throttling persists long term. There may always be a small gap, but I'd expect this to narrow.

I think/hope Alan is on to something

I hope so too. I guess we'll see! For you, with a Performance, I can't see any way that somehow they're going to hobble Supercharging performance permanently. I assume US owners of 2021 Performance are seeing terrible results too, but I guess someone will chime in soon. The LG results, I'm less sure of where things will end up.

But it clearly would not be worth having 3-5% more capacity if it cut Supercharging speed longterm by 10-30% or more, or whatever.

 

[FredMt]

Hello, thanks to the last information (thanks everybody for this) i did an update of our battery picture, here it is. Tell me if you think it is good.

View attachment 622499

Many thanks,
E5D is only Europe market and it seems that E3D soft locked is only for Europe too.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Hello, thanks to the last information (thanks everybody for this) i did an update of our battery picture, here it is. Tell me if you think it is good.

View attachment 622499

It might be good to clarify somehow that the 2nd and 3rd columns do not apply to the US. At the current time, there are apparently only Panasonic batteries in US AWDs, and they're not soft locked. That could change at some point, but it would require an EPA test with lower range to be conducted. I'm not sure what is happening in Canada (it would depend on their rules).

With the focus on metric units here, this is somewhat implicit, but if Canada matches the US, then this table would be misleading.