Mercedes approved for ACTUAL self driving in the USA. And will accept responsibility.

[spacecoin]

If it's sold , where are the videos ? those with journalists and safety drivers does not count

The demography that buys a high end Merc is perhaps not very overlapping with "tech geek" and "youtuber"?

 

[spacecoin]

If the ODD limit can be hit instantly without prior warning then it cannot work for L3. With L3, the human might be reading or watching a movie but needs to be the fall-back ready user when prompted. So the human will need some time to stop what they are doing, regain situational awareness and resume control. That only works in situations where the L3 can give the human sufficient advance notice. So L3 only makes sense in an ODD where there is enough time for the human to react. So any ODD limit that can happen without warning cannot be an ODD limit for L3.

What I mean is that you only see about 10-15s ahead even if you slow down safely. That's fine if you have a fallback ready user but not if you haven't.

I do expect L4 highway that can handle all traffic situations in good weather in a few years. L4 highway in all weather might be 10 years away.

From OEM:s? there is not even a legal framework for it right now? From when they are designed it takes 3-5 years to get them onto the market.
I'm talking about personally owned vehicles here. Not likely within 10 years is my guess.

Yes, you can do L3 in a more limited ODD, like traffic jam assist. That is what I am saying. But if you want to do a bigger ODD, like all highways from on ramp to off ramp, all weather, at full highway speeds, then I think you basically need L4 so that I think doing L4 highway makes more sense.

Here we disagree. I think you will need a fallback ready user on the highway for a very long time for the systems that are available for consumers to buy.

Perhaps the reference to L4 asking the human to take over when leaving the ODD confused you because it sounds like L3. The key difference is that with L4, human fallback is optional but with L3, human fallback is required.

Example: L4 highway approaches highway exit. It asks the human to take over. If human takes over, L4 is off, and human resumes driving. If human fails to take over, L4 does the fallback. It pulls over as soon as it is safe to do so. L3 approaches the highway exit. It requests the human take over. The human must take over since the L3 cannot do the fallback. See the difference?

So you don't need to do L3 human fallback in order to do L4. You can build L4 to do its own fallback. L4 does not require human fallback. Human fallback is optional in L4.

Yes I know that L4 doesn't require fallback in the L4 ODD, but again, I doubt there will be a system that you can buy as a consumer that is capable of that within 10 years. Hence I believe we'll be seeing L3 with DDT fallback at highway speeds (within 5 years) long before we'll see any highway L4.

I think you're focusing too much on the fixed ODD aspects (road type and speed) and too little on dynamic ODD limitations such as weather, smoke, blinding sun + random stuff on the road, like debris, accidents et.c.

 

[diplomat33]

What I mean is that you only see about 10-15s ahead even if you slow down safely. That's fine if you have a fallback ready user but not if you haven't.

From OEM:s? there is not even a legal framework for it right now? From when they are designed it takes 3-5 years to get them onto the market.
I'm talking about personally owned vehicles here. Not likely within 10 years is my guess.


Here we disagree. I think you will need a fallback ready user on the highway for a very long time for the systems that are available for consumers to buy.


Yes I know that L4 doesn't require fallback in the L4 ODD, but again, I doubt there will be a system that you can buy as a consumer that is capable of that within 10 years. Hence I believe we'll be seeing L3 with DDT fallback at highway speeds (within 5 years) long before we'll see any highway L4.

I think you're focusing too much on the fixed ODD aspects (road type and speed) and too little on dynamic ODD limitations such as weather, smoke, blinding sun + random stuff on the road, like debris, accidents et.c.

Thanks for the reply.

Let me ask you: say you have L3 full highway and the car gives the human 10+ second warning to take over when it detects dynamic ODD limitations like weather, smoke, road debris, accident, construction etc.... that seems to be what you are suggesting, right? Do you really think that is realistic? I don't think it is realistic because I don't think we can trust the human to reliably take over with 10 seconds warnings in dynamic situations, not if we are going to let the human read a book, watch a movie or play games on the infotainment screen with their kids while the L3 is driving. And what about dynamic situations that happen so quickly that the system can't give 10 second warning? So I think even L3 will need to be able to safely handle all those dynamic situations on its own, without human fallback. I think the L3 10+ second warning should only be for fixed ODD aspects. I hope that clears up my position.

 

[enemji]

And that is why I suspect L3 won't last very long. L3 is a hybrid between L2 and L4. It is basically meant as an intermediary step on the way to L4. But as L4 becomes more and more viable, I think companies will just do that. Companies won't need to do L3 when they can do L4. And companies that can't do L4, will just do the best L2 that they can do.

I’d rather have a superior L2 than a mediocre L3. That, in essence, is why L3 will neevr get anywhere

 

[enemji]

If the car senses

That sounds like magic to me

 

[spacecoin]

Thanks for the reply.

Let me ask you: say you have L3 full highway and the car gives the human 10+ second warning to take over when it detects dynamic ODD limitations like weather, smoke, road debris, accident, construction etc.... that seems to be what you are suggesting, right? Do you really think that is realistic? I don't think it is realistic because I don't think we can trust the human to reliably take over with 10 seconds warnings in dynamic situations, not if we are going to let the human read a book, watch a movie or play games on the infotainment screen with their kids while the L3 is driving. And what about dynamic situations that happen so quickly that the system can't give 10 second warning? So I think even L3 will need to be able to safely handle all those dynamic situations on its own, without human fallback. I think the L3 10+ second warning should only be for fixed ODD aspects. I hope that clears up my position.

Thanks, it does.

I think there are examples in the MB DrivePilot ODD that proves you wrong.
Like here:

and here:

Perhaps you will say that 60km/h saves them, but I will then claim that you can reduce the speed to from 100-120 to 60 pretty safely if the ODD limit also includes a lead car.

I still think that L3 at 120 km/h will happen and that it provides real value in many scenarios. I think we'll see them go to 80 km/h with a lead car within 2-3 years and to 120km/h in 5 years,

 

[enemji]

Thanks, it does.

I think there are examples in the MB DrivePilot ODD that proves you wrong.
Like here:

Perhaps you will say that 60km/h saves them, but I will then claim that you can reduce the speed to from 100-120 to 60 pretty safely if the ODD limit also includes a lead car.

I still think that L3 at 120 km/h will happen and that it provides real value in many scenarios. I think we'll see them go to 80 km/h with a lead car within 2-3 years and to 120km/h in 5 years,

A distracted driver will panic in a take over situation. It is just being human.

 

[spacecoin]

A distracted driver will panic in a take over situation. It is just being human.

For sure that might happen and it's a risk. However, the vehicle is performing the complete OEDR and DDT until the human has taken over. As such the ADS need to be able to stop or perform an MRM without human intervention if the handover fails.

 

[spacecoin]

I’d rather have a superior L2 than a mediocre L3. That, in essence, is why L3 will neevr get anywhere

A car with "superior L2" can also have an L3 mode, like the DrivePilot has. It's not mutually exclusive.

 

[diplomat33]

Thanks, it does.

I think there are examples in the MB DrivePilot ODD that proves you wrong. Perhaps you will say that 60km/h saves them, but I will then claim that you can reduce the speed to from 100-120 to 60 pretty safely if the ODD limit also includes a lead car.

I still think that L3 at 120 km/h will happen and that it provides real value in many scenarios. I think we'll see them go to 80 km/h with a lead car within 2-3 years and to 120km/h in 5 years,

The current ODD of Drive Pilot is so limited that it works for L3. Yes, the low speed saves them. When you are limited to 60 km/h, lead car, traffic jam scenario, there is much lower risk of any dynamic situation that would surprise the human. And as the traffic jam clears and the speed of the car starts to increase, there is advance notice of the ODD limit so there is plenty of time for the human to resume control. Will L3 still work safely at 120 km/hr? That's the question. You seem to think so. I have my doubts that driving 120 kph, with a human playing video games or reading, that L3 will work in cases with sudden road debris, construction zones, etc... The risk will certainly be a lot higher.

I think the tricky part of L3 is the machine-human handover. If you can ensure the human gets sufficient advance notice every time the human is asked to take over and you can ensure with robust driver monitoring that the human is ready to take over every time, then L3 should be safe enough. I suspect carmakers will limit the ODD, like we see with Drive Pilot, in order to limit risk and liability. Carmakers certainly won't want an accident where the car crashed on L3 at 120 kph and the human driver was killed, and it turned out that the L3 notified the driver but too late or the driver had mode confusion and did not take over in time.

 

[enemji]

A car with "superior L2" can also have an L3 mode, like the DrivePilot has. It's not mutually exclusive.

But the L3 by definition promises to do moreand that changes the benchmark

 

[spacecoin]

But the L3 by definition promises to do moreand that changes the benchmark

No. It promises to do less and actually be safe (higher reliability in a limited setting) when the system is in L3 mode. The L2 ODD will be a lot wider.

 

[enemji]

For sure that might happen and it's a risk. However, the vehicle is performing the complete OEDR and DDT until the human has taken over. As such the ADS need to be able to stop or perform an MRM without human intervention if the handover fails.

The concern is that the human in a rush to take over will make a mistake such as stepping on the accelerator instead of the brake, etc

 

[spacecoin]

The current ODD of Drive Pilot is so limited that it works for L3. Yes, the low speed saves them. When you are limited to 60 km/h, lead car, traffic jam scenario, there is much lower risk of any dynamic situation that would surprise the human. And as the traffic jam clears and the speed of the car starts to increase, there is advance notice of the ODD limit so there is plenty of time for the human to resume control. Will L3 still work safely at 120 km/hr? That's the question. You seem to think so. I have my doubts that driving 120 kph, with a human playing video games or reading, that L3 will work in cases with sudden road debris, construction zones, etc... The risk will certainly be a lot higher.

I think the tricky part of L3 is the machine-human handover. If you can ensure the human gets sufficient advance notice every time the human is asked to take over and you can ensure with robust driver monitoring that the human is ready to take over every time, then L3 should be safe enough. I suspect carmakers will limit the ODD, like we see with Drive Pilot, in order to limit risk and liability. Carmakers certainly won't want an accident where the car crashed on L3 at 120 kph and the human driver was killed, and it turned out that the L3 notified the driver but too late or the driver had mode confusion and did not take over in time.

I don't really disagree that there are some risks with L3 at higher speeds. Especially, as you point out, in HMI. But I still think it will happen and will be proved safe (albeit in a limited ODD with a lead car). We'll have to wait and see.

 

[enemji]

I think the tricky part of L3 is the machine-human handover. If you can ensure the human gets sufficient advance notice every time the human is asked to take over and you can ensure with robust driver monitoring that the human is ready to take over every time,

Exactly!

 

[spacecoin]

The concern is that the human in a rush to take over will make a mistake such as stepping on the accelerator instead of the brake, etc

I understand and I agree. However, the OEM isn't formally liable if that happens. It may still be a real issue though, but so is over-trusting an L2 with shitty DMS like Tesla has proven over the years.

 

[spacecoin]

Here’s a bunch of new permits for highway testing in China:

https://x.com/leixing77/status/1738224986928955651

BMW (Shanghai)
Mercedes (Beijing)
IM (Shanghai)
Deepal (Chongqing)
ARCFOX (Beijing)
AVATR (Chongqing)

Six brands so far have received permits to conduct L3 testing on highways in three cities China.

 

[stopcrazypp]

For sure that might happen and it's a risk. However, the vehicle is performing the complete OEDR and DDT until the human has taken over. As such the ADS need to be able to stop or perform an MRM without human intervention if the handover fails.

But that only applies for 10 seconds, once that 10 seconds is over, even though the car may attempt to do a MRM, it's not obligated to be successful (unlike an L4 car).

 

[spacecoin]

But that only applies for 10 seconds, once that 10 seconds is over, even though the car may attempt to do a MRM, it's not obligated to be successful (unlike an L4 car).

Yeah, and I reckon most of them will reduce the speed as fast as possible (safe) during the hand over and and try to pull over and stop if the handover isn’t completed.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Thanks, it does.

I think there are examples in the MB DrivePilot ODD that proves you wrong.
Like here:

and here:

Perhaps you will say that 60km/h saves them, but I will then claim that you can reduce the speed to from 100-120 to 60 pretty safely if the ODD limit also includes a lead car.

I still think that L3 at 120 km/h will happen and that it provides real value in many scenarios. I think we'll see them go to 80 km/h with a lead car within 2-3 years and to 120km/h in 5 years,

60 vs 120 makes a big difference. The braking distance of 35 vs 75 mph changes from 136 ft (41m) to 433 ft (132m)

https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/vehicle_stopping_distance_and_time_upenn.pdf

The steady state travel distance also is different, at 35 mph it's 513 ft (156m) in 10 seconds, at 75 mph it's 1027 ft (313m) in 10 seconds.

I would argue those differences will matter in terms of the margin the vehicle has to give the advanced warning and also its ability to handle situations that may pop up.