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Mobile Starlink Discussion

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It has been available for sometime. But I have seen any major carrier sign up for it yet
They have existing deals with Intelsat, so I can't imagine them piling on another service until those contracts expire.

The only ones I've seen going with Starlink Aviation are Hawaiian Airlines (61 aircraft), JSX (45), airBaltic (44), and Zipair Tokyo (7). Those are fleet sizes, and not necessarily the number of aircraft that have service.

On the other hand, the cruise lines jumped on Starlink Maritime right away, including Royal Caribbean, Norwegian and Carnival.

The one thing these companies have in common is that they operate over water where there's no access to cell towers. airBaltic is the only exception to that. They may be an odd duck in that they didn't have an Intelsat agreement but decided to start offering internet access because Starlink became available.
 
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I was wondering how they were going to communicate on cell phone frequencies given that there's no overlap with Starlink satellite frequencies. Then I read that this cellular feature needs V2 satellites. So I guess they put cell hardware onboard.

They need to piggyback an entirely separate Direct To Device payload (SX calls it "SCS") on the 'baseline' V2/V2M, with its own set of frequency specific user antennas and then some method of plugging into the V2's gateway payloads (basically a modem). That's actually not particularly challenging given that the D2D payload will leverage the same general technology as the primary payload (at a lower/easier frequency), and in general packaging is always pretty solvable. But...the D2D payload WILL be a mass impact to V2's (~170kg I think is the most accurate number right now on V2M?) and also likely a volume impact and so WILL reduce the number of V2's launched per vehicle. We know the regular V2M's reduce F9 launch quantities by over half and the D2D payload will drop that to something like 16-17 sats/F9.

Perhaps a useful way of framing that 17/F9 rate: Near as makes no difference that means they need to launch F9 once a week just to maintain a full ~4k satellite V2M constellation, and that's assuming a 5 year satellite life (which is pretty generous). Of course that rate is shaping up to be feasible (seems like they're going to hit one starlink launch per week in 2023), and its likely not all V2M's will have the D2D payload on it (so there's some margin there), but importantly, it's taken them YEARS to get to here, with a well seasoned vehicle. Given the inevitable low launch rate for Starship for many many years to come, fewer V2's per vehicle [due to D2D payloads] will certainly complicate the V2 constellation deployment/replenishment timeline.

It would be interesting to know how difficult it is to adapt cell technology to such comparatively-high lag.

Most folks are using some derivative of 5g ntn. Not a huge thing to implement, honestly. (To be clear--I'm told by smarter people than me that it's NBD). Lag really isn’t a big deal either and ranging/doppler is pretty no-new-news. The real difficulty with D2D is all about closing the link, and then it's mostly the reverse link. This is why Apple has you physically stand facing a satellite with your phone out in front of you--they don't want you to put your no good sack of water between their phone and their satellite. It would attenuate too many of the precious few deebees.

Impact on device battery (and to a lesser degree, thermal limits) relative to normal/on-grid use are also pretty significant when trying to turn the phone's output to 11.

Oh, and I don't know if this matters, but T-Mobile has access to 4G at 600 MHz (band 71), which nobody else has. That's the lowest frequency available for cell phones across all technologies. I assume the lower the frequency the better, from a reliability standpoint.

Generally yes, though the downside is that the lower the frequency, the lower the theoretical max throughput.

Just get the airlines to sign up for traditional Starlink service with a dish, and I am more than happy.
This cell-satellite service will not work while inside an airplane I guess.

Yes, planes want something like Starlink/Lightspeed/Kuiper. D2D service won't be useful in a plane because of the attenuation from the fuselage. Seriously, best case with some fully built out D2D satellite constellation is probably an experience ~equivalent to the go-go wifi we're all conditioned/resigned to today.

I’ve always been of the opinion that Elon initiated the Starlink program with the long term goal of providing Earth to Mars and Mars to Mars comm.

The technologies and fundamental mission requirements are at the opposite end of the <ahem> spectrum; there’s really zero direct relevance between Starlink and any kind od mars comms. Everything that makes Starlink able to provide affordable ~uniform service over the surface of a sphere (volume production, volume based reliability/redundancy, smallsat type parts selection, beam hopping, etc) is the opposite of what one would implement for mars comms. For mars one might upgrade/replicate the DSN, and then maybe put a GEO or three in mars orbit to maintain constant comms.
 
We know the regular V2M's reduce F9 launch quantities by over half and the D2D payload will drop that to something like 16-17 sats/F9.
Falcon Heavy may be able to lend support to Starlink mass-to-orbit needs. However, if the satellites are growing too much in volume, even that option may not suffice.
the D2D payload WILL be a mass impact to V2's (~170kg I think is the most accurate number right now on V2M?)
What is all that mass used for?
 
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[snip]

The real difficulty with D2D is all about closing the link, and then it's mostly the reverse link. This is why Apple has you physically stand facing a satellite with your phone out in front of you--they don't want you to put your no good sack of water between their phone and their satellite. It would attenuate too many of the precious few deebees.

Impact on device battery (and to a lesser degree, thermal limits) relative to normal/on-grid use are also pretty significant when trying to turn the phone's output to 11.

[snip]

Interesting... didn't know Apple recommended that.

The difficulty in an "unmodified" phone being able to reach a sat is what I had talked about earlier... if you have to hold your phone up at the sky ("Can you hear me now?" lol), they are at the limit of their ability. And I suspect if attenuation from your body and/or careful positioning of the antenna are necessary, there are going to be lots of places /situations where service just may not work.
 
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Falcon Heavy may be able to lend support to Starlink mass-to-orbit needs.

Could be, yes. The main thought experiment is where they are currently with the V2M and V2M+D2D constellation deployment plan: They’re at a place where their launch rate more or less equals their decommission rate, and that of course results in the painting-the-golden-gate-bridge problem—at their ~current rate, they basically are decommissioning the first sat as soon as the last sat launches 5 years later. That’s obviously not a solid business plan so for sure they need to figure out a way to increase satellite launch rate; obviously they’re not going to stand-still relative to today’s launch rate and its very reasonable to assume F9 launch rate will continue to increase. Hard to say where the practical limit is for F9 launch rate.

Extending the thought experiment to rolling out a full V2 constellation [on Starship] returns a much less favorable outlook, however. We’re easily years away from the full 4k satellite V2 network (let alone with D2D payloads), and probably looking at close to 2030…


FWIW there’s a few FH things to work through on the concept of augmenting F9 starlink deployments:
  • Its kind of hard to say what the practical rate of FH launches could be and its unclear how a FH launch impacts overlapping F9 mission timelines/rates. The solution would be some blended manifest (90/10 F9/FH or whatever) that probably ends up not adding too much benefit vs just figuring out how to launch moar F9s.
  • Launch cost per sat will go up due to the more expensive FH, though that could end up in the noise for SX.
  • The biggest roadblock is that the F9 Starlink stack is really pushing the limits on lateral mode*** and so the ability to add sats (and thus height to the stack) is at best, a very diminishing returns kind of situation.
***Bit sideways here, but SX driving first modes down on Starlink is truly is one of the most amazing things SX has done in the history of SX, and something not a lot of people talk about. Usually launcher PUGs spec lateral mode to at least 6Hz (F9 is currently 10 I think). In conversations with most of them, they're willing to entertain the notion of going down to ~4Hz with analysis. BUT…because SX owns both the starlink stack and the rocket underneath and [obviously] have both very well structurally characterized, they can hyper tune the starlink stack such that they fly WAY below 4Hz. They’re REALLY pushing load boundaries and flying a way floppy stack in order to maximize the number of sats on each launch.

That low(er) frequency manifests as a huge mass savings vs designing to a “normal” frequency; SX can strip a LOT of mass out of the starlink stack that would otherwise be needed to keep the stiffness up. Bit of a WAG here, if spaceX had to keep the lateral mode above 4Hz, they'd probably only get ~2/3 the number of sats on there.

Just think of the constellation’s evolution over time if they were launching at 2/3 the rate. Further, think of the massive launch cost and satellite rate advantage they have over anyone else—even customers that fly on F9 will never get that tightly coupled stack+rocket; even an otherwise exact starlink replica constellation but from a paying F9 customer would only get 2/3-3/4 the launch rate that SX has with Starlink because SX would (understandably) not want to toe the line like they do internally.

Anyway, circling way back, the actual point here is that there's not a lot of opportunity to make the Starlink stack much (if any) taller with more sats in FH because they’re basically on the limit of the starlink stack being too floppy for F9. The additional mass from additional sats [to say nothing about the mass being way up top] would quickly push the stack beyond the floppiness limit, so more mass would have to be baked in throughout the stack to bring the stiffness back in line…but of course all that extra baked in mass unfavorably impacts the floppiness of the stack also, so even more mass would have to get baked in to control that mass…and so on…

If we hand-wave FH reusable as 50% more mass than F9, I’d guess at best they could only bolt 25% more sats on FH vs F9. Not worth it IMO—just launch 25% more F9s.

What is all that mass used for?

Figure about 1/2 of that mass for the actual payload, 1/2 for the actual structure, and some of both for thermal (which gets a bit muddied). Some of it actually doubles as structural mass—for instance, if you need some thermal mass there but also need a structural or shielding plate there anyway, you just make the plate a bit thicker than you would if it were solely structural. Some of it is baked more into the payload parts themselves—more/thicker copper in PCA layers, for instance.

For Starlink's Ku payload, a major enabler is that the relatively high frequencies mean everything ends up pretty small, so it’s really easy to package a phased array antenna on a typical PCA. The lower mobile frequencies mean everything is bigger—especially the antenna elements themselves, in all three dimensions. A single mobile band element is easily 10-20x (or more) the area of a Starlink Ku element, and thickness also comes into play. So…the array becomes multiple PCAs, and so then you need interconnects between them, phasing needs to be matched between them, etc. For the Starlink Ku elements you can build a reasonably efficient radiating element within a practical number of PCA layers and overall thickness. For a C band element you might need many many mm of thickness for it to really work the way you want it to…manufacturing issues aside, think about how heavy an 8-10mm thick PCA is going to be…. (There are other ways to get the dimension than a solid PCA, but there’s still more mass involved than a “normal” sized PCA)

Structurally, obviously you need to survive the launch environment and then have a release mechanism once you’re up there, but even on orbit you need a rigid enough structure to keep the many-m2 area array pretty flat. There’s going to be some pretty significant thermal gradients and distortions on the array that’s just kind of hanging out there on the side of the main starlink satellite, and its largely going to have to be thermally self sufficient. There’s also likely material geometric distortions between the main satellite body and the deployed D2D array that you either need to solve with a super stiff (= heavy) deployed structure, or additional sensors on the D2D array that feed back its overall shape/position to the main satellite so the main satellite knows where the D2D array is pointed.

The difficulty in an "unmodified" phone being able to reach a sat is what I had talked about earlier... if you have to hold your phone up at the sky ("Can you hear me now?" lol), they are at the limit of their ability. And I suspect if attenuation from your body and/or careful positioning of the antenna are necessary, there are going to be lots of places /situations where service just may not work.

Yes, and, that’s the reality of any D2D service, pretty much for everyone. On the forward link (from the sat) the link is FCC/ITU regulated to a PFD, so you can’t just turn the sat up to 11 to add dB’s. On the reverse link (from the phone), there’s really only so much power a phone can put out physically, and output of course is also regulated by various health and safety organizations. The shitty part is that every non-sat phone has multi-directional antennas, so unless the services are selecting specific antennas within the phone (eg, only the ones on the top of the phone) a bunch of the power is totally wasted spraying signal the wrong way. NBD on terrestrial networks for that tower a few clicks away. Real big deal when the “tower in the sky” is 500-1000+km away.
 
[snip]

Yes, and, that’s the reality of any D2D service, pretty much for everyone. On the forward link (from the sat) the link is FCC/ITU regulated to a PFD, so you can’t just turn the sat up to 11 to add dB’s. On the reverse link (from the phone), there’s really only so much power a phone can put out physically, and output of course is also regulated by various health and safety organizations. The shitty part is that every non-sat phone has multi-directional antennas, so unless the services are selecting specific antennas within the phone (eg, only the ones on the top of the phone) a bunch of the power is totally wasted spraying signal the wrong way. NBD on terrestrial networks for that tower a few clicks away. Real big deal when the “tower in the sky” is 500-1000+km away.

That antenna design is the primary reason I'm surprised it could work "unmodified" (i.e.- designed for cell towers 1-2 orders of magnitude closer at random orientations). or work at least reasonably well anyway....

In my admittedly light study of antenna design (back in the NTSC days, and when an active HAM ), it makes a world of difference. Dipole, yagi, parabolic, multi-element arrays, etc... they all have specific applications they are most useful for, and often perform poorly outside an intended application...

And while I understand digital comms allows for better filtering, noise rejection, selectivity, etc... the bottom line is that it's still an RF signal that has to propagate within the constraints of power budgets, signal attenuation, radiation patterns, and well... "real world physics". A handset has a pretty significant set of those constraints...
 
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First major airline to sign up for Starlink. Hope the flood gates will now be open.

The big players all have existing contracts so don't expect any changes anytime soon on the flagship carriers. Maybe we'll see some PR splashes like this one from Qatar, but running out the contracts and converting aircraft will take a long time.


A couple things worth pointing out:
  • Unless I totally missed it, there's not a timeline on the Qatar rollout. Converting their fleet of 250 aircraft isn't easy, but it's certainly easier than the the real big carriers around the world. The rollout is also likely overlapped with Starlink opening up service in the countries over which Qatar routes will fly, as well as overlapped the starlink ISL network being operational.
  • 350 megs is per aircraft, not per customer. Qatar's fleet is pretty heavy, with most aircraft seating 250+ passengers. (They still have A380's with over 500 PAX). The biggest takeaway in their PR splash is "complimentary"--I don't know what the take is on complimentary internet for 250-500 people on a long haul, but I'd expect it to be pretty high, at least during the hours folks are typically awake. Best guess is overall user speeds during peak usage will be a bit better than the low take "why TF would I pay $8 for tin can internet?" we have today, with the major upside being that there likely won't be random spinny ball dropouts.
 
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The big players all have existing contracts so don't expect any changes anytime soon on the flagship carriers. Maybe we'll see some PR splashes like this one from Qatar, but running out the contracts and converting aircraft will take a long time.


A couple things worth pointing out:
  • Unless I totally missed it, there's not a timeline on the Qatar rollout. Converting their fleet of 250 aircraft isn't easy, but it's certainly easier than the the real big carriers around the world. The rollout is also likely overlapped with Starlink opening up service in the countries over which Qatar routes will fly, as well as overlapped the starlink ISL network being operational.
  • 350 megs is per aircraft, not per customer. Qatar's fleet is pretty heavy, with most aircraft seating 250+ passengers. (They still have A380's with over 500 PAX). The biggest takeaway in their PR splash is "complimentary"--I don't know what the take is on complimentary internet for 250-500 people on a long haul, but I'd expect it to be pretty high, at least during the hours folks are typically awake. Best guess is overall user speeds during peak usage will be a bit better than the low take "why TF would I pay $8 for tin can internet?" we have today, with the major upside being that there likely won't be random spinny ball dropouts.
If they're smart, they'll have a small library of movies to stream on board the aircraft so won't need Internet access.
 
The big players all have existing contracts so don't expect any changes anytime soon on the flagship carriers. Maybe we'll see some PR splashes like this one from Qatar, but running out the contracts and converting aircraft will take a long time.


A couple things worth pointing out:
  • Unless I totally missed it, there's not a timeline on the Qatar rollout. Converting their fleet of 250 aircraft isn't easy, but it's certainly easier than the the real big carriers around the world. The rollout is also likely overlapped with Starlink opening up service in the countries over which Qatar routes will fly, as well as overlapped the starlink ISL network being operational.
  • 350 megs is per aircraft, not per customer. Qatar's fleet is pretty heavy, with most aircraft seating 250+ passengers. (They still have A380's with over 500 PAX). The biggest takeaway in their PR splash is "complimentary"--I don't know what the take is on complimentary internet for 250-500 people on a long haul, but I'd expect it to be pretty high, at least during the hours folks are typically awake. Best guess is overall user speeds during peak usage will be a bit better than the low take "why TF would I pay $8 for tin can internet?" we have today, with the major upside being that there likely won't be random spinny ball dropouts.

No date, and people are asking. One website does mention that one of the current service providers for Qatar Airways is exiting January 2025 ...


One such VAR, SITA, has already revealed it will exit the cabin connectivity market in January 2025. SITA is a service provider to Qatar Airways, supporting a lower bandwidth L-band satellite solution on the carrier’s Airbus A380s and Boeing 787-8s. GX-powered Wi-Fi, branded “Super Wi-Fi” by Qatar Airways, is available on the carrier’s Boeing 777s, 787-9s and Airbus A350s.
 
A couple things worth pointing out:

  • 350 megs is per aircraft, not per customer.

I noticed that in the tweet Sawyer Merritt made as well:

The partnership promises to not only to ditch the price tag but boost the download speeds from 10Mbps on QR’s best Super WiFi service to true broadband rates of 350Mbps per passenger or device.

... although elsewhere he then describes it as each passenger getting "up to" the total (shared) service bandwidth.
 
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...each passenger getting "up to" the total (shared) service bandwidth.

Indeed if the aircraft gets 350 megs, we can all concede that one passenger could in fact get up to 350megs.
***Related, I'm paying xfinity for "speeds up to 400".

This is another one of those "duh, look at reality" situations that is immediately resolved with a rudimentary evaluation of 1) current Starlink services, 2) current Starlink speeds and 3) anything but a fantasy version on how both of those might evolve over the next couple years.
 
This is another one of those "duh, look at reality" situations that is immediately resolved with a rudimentary evaluation of 1) current Starlink services, 2) current Starlink speeds and 3) anything but a fantasy version on how both of those might evolve over the next couple years.
I find it humorous that you think that much of the average person's grasp of technology - especially in a fairly nascent field like LEO satellite internet. Technology is literally magic for a significant portion of the population.

Look, there are a bunch of satellites up there, and they have fuel. So all they have to do is cluster enough satellites close to an aircraft to provide the 350 Mbps for each passenger. Duh.

Yes, that's a joke.
 
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Actually what would be nifty, but may not be worth while, is a small flash (ssd) based Content Delivery Network node in the aircraft. The problem is there are too many CDNs... Content delivery network - Wikipedia

Could be--would be cool if the on-board library could [securely] pre-load your watch list(s?). Bit of an evolution to how airlines operate now, but it doesn't seem THAT more complicated than the "pre-order your meal" notifications I get from United a few days before my flight?

FWIW I've found that even within an airline their on-board libraries vary quite a bit, so having some edge user augmentation could improve the overall experience...as long as it doesn't bring down everyone else's experience. Maybe there's a world where you can queue the download of your un-libraried thing once you get onboard? Bluetooth streaming might be a good mitigation to real time data demand too. (Near as I know, you can only bluetooth audio to [some] IFE units, not video)

I find it humorous that you think that much of the average person's grasp of technology - especially in a fairly nascent field like LEO satellite internet. Technology is literally magic for a significant portion of the population.

That's a pretty dismal evaluation of the collective intelligence within this forum.

This is not a collection of laypeople, it's a bunch of people that are nerds for tech and nerds for SpaceX. Addressing my aforementioned rudimentary items, near as makes no difference everyone in this subform 1) knows what kind of service speeds starlink offers, 2) knows what kind of speed test speeds users are reporting and 3) understands how technology evolves over time.

I don't understand why you think the collective can't aggregate those points into the logical conclusion.

I also don't understand why you think such an exercise requires any (let alone deep) understanding of satellite technology.
 
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I was referring to the population at large.

In other words, you've completely fabricated a narrative around how I view the average person's grasp of technology, solely based on the level of tech jargon I put into my posts here in an extremely tech forward forum.

Bollocks, that.

If you actually want to have an on-topic conversation, why not just ask some real questions and provide some real counterpoints?