Model 3 as a Student Driver car

[AquaMan]

Dang i wanna come take a lesson with you, i like it!

There may in fact be a few licensed drivers who choose to pay us to explore a possible purchase. Personally, I only got 15 minutes with the car at the dealership before the salesman was done with me and I don't happen to have any friends or family who own one. So, I might have spent that money myself and considered it a good investment.

 

[Saghost]

Just saw this video and thought it might be helpful. It’s an X not a 3, but the accelerators are likely very similar - and she has a hand throttle that just plugs in to the car’s wiring harness:

 

[swaltner]

Nice FAQ. Only comment is that there is a typo on the first line of the last item - repeated word - “This car saves us us money!”

 

[AquaMan]

repeated word - “This car saves us us money!”

Good catch thank you!

 

[Motorskills]

Good catch thank you!

Hey Aquaman. I'm looking to install dual controls in a Tesla. 1 year later, did you do it?

 

[Motorskills]

Hi all. This is my first post.

I own a driving school for teens and some people say I'm insane to consider the Model 3 for our fleet. I figure this crowd will understand the many reasons, including fuel savings, safety, excellent visibility, (for instructor and student) and let's face it it's good for marketing.

Still, since I expect this idea will draw a lot of off-topic comments, let me FIRST put the most common concerns to rest: No, we don't constantly crash cars. In fact mile-for-mile, we may crash less than the average driver. We've put over a 1.6 miles on our fleet in the last 10 years. During that time, we've been rear-ended 4 times and 3 times we've damaged rims on curbs. That's not a lot. (P.S. I would plan to add a 1.75" lift kit to keep the body higher from curbs.)

Let me also acknowledge, so to alleviate the temptation to discuss this... Yes I'm aware that if Tesla succeeds with full level 5 self-driving, my livelihood will be done. I hope they succeed but I still figure I still have 1-2 more decades during which it will remain a requirement to learn to drive to obtain a license.

NOW to my questions which need a little background: In all our cars, we install passenger-side brake and accelerator pedals. They're very simple devices using pulleys and cables which just pull down on the driver-side pedals. They mount to the firewall (not the floorboard). But with this in mind, before I take the plunge, I have the following questions:

1) Often, our students step on the accelerator, while the instructor steps on the brake. (Essentially 2-foot driving) In our current ICE cars, this is not a big problem... The brake simply wins. The transmission slips but the car stops or stays still. This is ABSOLUTELY necessary or I can't use a Model 3. Well, I test drove a Model 3 and tried using both pedals, and confirmed that it slows (cool) and that it beeps (cool) but I didn't confirm that if both pedals are fully depressed, the car will stop and remain stationary. (I didn't get the chance.) Sooo... I need one of the two to be true:

a) It will behave as I require. If it does, cool. But even if so, there's a LOT of torque to overcome with brake pads.
b) I can use a relay from the brake light wiring to "override" the fly-by-wire accelerator pedal so it looks to the car as if it's released when the brake is applied. Does anyone know if or how this could be done?
c) Although it may be a bit complicated, I could do it mechanically: Rearrange the cables so that when the instructor steps on the brake pedal, it does two things: Depress the driver-side brake pedal, and also physically lift the accelerator. The brake kit wasn't designed for this... It only has one cable for the brake pedal.

Any thoughts? In particular with how the accelerator pedal is wired? (That is, what each wire does.) Or how I can find out?

Hey Aquaman. Did you figure it out? I'd love to teach in a Tesla

 

[Simplexcity]

I just bought a used Model 3 accelerator pedal on Ebay. $80 including shipping. It has 6 contacts, which means it's almost certainly not an optical encoder unless there's a chip inside and it's sending a serial signal. (Which would be very weird design.) They appear to be low voltage connectors.

So, it's probably a potentiometer which would mean I could override it with an external relay. I'm gonna put it on my multimeter and see how it behaves in terms of resistance from wire-to-wire as the pedal moves. What I will not know is how much voltage it handles (12v?) or which wires are power vs. ground. I will also Dremel it open to see what's going on in there.

I figure it's worth $80 to explore this and know for sure.

Did you ever find out if you can adapt a break pedal to the model 3 ?

 

[AquaMan]

Did you ever find out if you can adapt a break pedal to the model 3 ?

It's been a while since I posted. Here's the conclusion:

Yes, I got it working, but after teaching 3 lessons, I decided to sell the car. The Model 3 doesn't allow an instructor to adequately maintain safety, even with an "advanced student". (That is, someone who is ready to get their license, but lacking the benefit of experience.)

Consider that about 50% of new teen drivers crash in their first couple years. (And it's not due to poor decisions as much as you'd think.... It's lack of experience.) Well, since we do a lot more driving than the average new driver, the instructor has to keep the car safer than the student could on his or her own. Otherwise, crashing within a year is virtually inevitable, and that's not okay.

So, I feel safe teaching in most compact ICE cars, but not in a Model 3. And the problem wasn't acceleration or braking.

The problematic factors are:
1) The rear window and rear side windows are too small for adequate visibility, especially from the passenger side, even with added mirrors. When I turn my head, I see more car interior than road.
2) The passenger seat is too far from the steering wheel. I have long arms and I can reach it, but not easily without leaning forward, and the time it takes to lean forward greatly slows instructor reaction time.

I still believe an EV with enough range to do a full workday of 4 lessons is a GREAT idea. But the Model 3 ain't it. As soon as there's a car with 320+ miles of range, great visibility, and a fairly short distance between the two front seats at a reasonable price, I'll swap out all our ICE cars for EV's. (Maybe that's the upcoming "Model 2", but I'm not married to Tesla.)

I loved the car and I miss it. I would have kept it for a personal car, but since I already own a lot of cars for the business, it just didn't make sense to keep it. Since used car prices are high now, I didn't lose any money.

It was a good experiment, but I need to wait for the right EV.

 

[thesmokingman]

Although the car is already gone, I would just add for anyone else... Hmm, instead of craning your head to see out you could have hit the camera view button or just left that view up.

 

[AquaMan]

Although the car is already gone, I would just add for anyone else... Hmm, instead of craning your head to see out you could have hit the camera view button or just left that view up.

"Hmm", that sounds a bit sarcastic. If you own and drive a Model 3, you already know it has substantial blind spots. If I could have made the car work, I would have.

The side cameras don't see the blind spots at all... What they see is pretty much the same as the wing mirrors see, which by definition isn't the blind spots. Blind spots are indeed behind the driver, but more sideways, outside the area seen by the side mirrors or cameras.

Even as an alternative to wing mirrors, the cameras often have glare, their display is too small, and they give a reduced sense of depth perception, due not only to the fisheye effect, but also because it's a monocular image.

 

[Dolemite]

Yes. Cameras are never going to replace a simple effing mirror - depth perception & time to change focus from a 3D to a 2D will always be subpar. Also "true" FSD isn't coming within the next 10, 20, 30+ years. So no need to worry about that.

Add to your list that the A-pillars on the Model 3 are massive - I've had entire full-size SUVs hide behind them. To make the car safer in the event of an accident, we've increased the probability of having an accident! Wheel shufflers everywhere rejoice.

 

[drivingschool]

"Hmm", that sounds a bit sarcastic. If you own and drive a Model 3, you already know it has substantial blind spots. If I could have made the car work, I would have.

The side cameras don't see the blind spots at all... What they see is pretty much the same as the wing mirrors see, which by definition isn't the blind spots. Blind spots are indeed behind the driver, but more sideways, outside the area seen by the side mirrors or cameras.

Even as an alternative to wing mirrors, the cameras often have glare, their display is too small, and they give a reduced sense of depth perception, due not only to the fisheye effect, but also because it's a monocular image.

Hi,

Simple question : So did you eventually did find a secondary brake pedal fit out that worked with TESLA 3? was it as standard as normal car becasue in Adelaide our usual modification guy has not worked on TESLA before.

 

[Ren.OG]

I'm going to say that teaching how to drive a Tesla should be reserved for your senior students, the one's at the end of your driving program.

Reasons for this:
Entry level students don't know how to drive at all yet.
They need to be familiar with ICE vehicle abilities and limitations.
They are unfamiliar with road theory
They are unfamiliar with road condition
They are unfamiliar with driving types: Passive, Agressive, Passive Agressive, Retiree (jk )
Their first car most likely won't be a Tesla.
*Tesla has too many assists for new drivers, teaches bad habits.

I think the last one is the most important
Tesla's have too many assists, new drivers need to build a routine around good driving habits. If the car does this for you then you will become too dependent on those assist and be a terrible negligent driver over-all. I know most cars these days have blind-spot monitoring but even that shouldn't be on a 'Student drivers' car. Checking blind spots USING THEIR EYES should be burned-into their skulls.

To answer your original question: The brake pedal cuts off acceleration when used so you shouldn't have a problem there.
Since its all electronic, the power of the motor gets cut off to not fight the brakes.

p.s. i really hope you teach these kids how to read the road and keep their ego's in check, kids these days r complete *sugar* on the road.
Also, having them learn the differences of FWD and RWD driving could help them from fishtailing in the future.

 

[Jasper2020]

Teaching in a lr model 3 myself without issues, students love it and visibility over the shoulder is better than my previous vw polo 2018 model... Yes the steeringwheel is further away because the car is wider, but im 190cm myself so i can reach it decently+i like the legroom.

Stuff like the built in camera's are so useful to replay situations u ended up in and discuss them afterwards, also the navigation system is very nice and clear (part on the drivingtest here) and i love that i can use google streetview and sattelite view to explain some road situations with a birds eye view. This is just teaching how to drive v2.0.

You dont HAVE to use backup cameras when ur teaching them how to park for example, u can just close the cameras and let them practice the "old school" way first. Just like u can disable the regen by using the roll function (which i dont, but i do let them experience the more "ice" experience for a moment)

Big difference with the topic starter is that the students are in my car for 40-100hours before they are ready for their exams(yes its VERY difficult here to pass your test)

Pics of mine now.

 

[AquaMan]

Big difference with the topic starter is that the students are in my car for 40-100hours before they are ready for their exams(yes its VERY difficult here to pass your test)

Probably so. We get 6 hours with our students unless they choose to pay for more lessons, which isn't common. Supposedly they're getting 20-30 hours of practice with parents between each of our 2-hour lessons, but parents often sign to attest "under penalty of perjury" that the practice occurred, and it just hasn't.

We may also be in very different driving environments. We're on the freeway in dense traffic every day, our curbs are high and our roads are full of potholes. Since we have only 3 lessons, we try to do some lane changes in the first lesson... Often while they're still tangling up their hands on the wheel.

Plus, I bet we have a greater percentage bumbling fools sharing our roads. (And even more dangerous... Some of them vote!)

Believe me, I was heavily biased in favor of sticking with it. Each of our vehicles does nearly 45,000 miles per year. (72,000 km) So... this really would have saved money. Locally we're paying $4.15/gallon (1.29 Euros/Liter).

But it's not even about fuel. Yesterday I spent about $1,600 US on a new alternator, tow, a battery, battery cable ends, and 45 minutes of extra pay for the employee who had to wait for the tow truck. I'm all about going electric when the right car comes along.

Good luck Jasper, sincerely. I hope it works well for you.

 

[fzxsert]

Teaching in a lr model 3 myself without issues, students love it and visibility over the shoulder is better than my previous vw polo 2018 model... Yes the steeringwheel is further away because the car is wider, but im 190cm myself so i can reach it decently+i like the legroom.

Stuff like the built in camera's are so useful to replay situations u ended up in and discuss them afterwards, also the navigation system is very nice and clear (part on the drivingtest here) and i love that i can use google streetview and sattelite view to explain some road situations with a birds eye view. This is just teaching how to drive v2.0.

You dont HAVE to use backup cameras when ur teaching them how to park for example, u can just close the cameras and let them practice the "old school" way first. Just like u can disable the regen by using the roll function (which i dont, but i do let them experience the more "ice" experience for a moment)

Big difference with the topic starter is that the students are in my car for 40-100hours before they are ready for their exams(yes its VERY difficult here to pass your test)

Pics of mine now.
View attachment 695314View attachment 695315

How difficult to install the passenger side pedals?
I asked a few modification guys. They do not know how to do it.

 

[Jasper2020]

Over here in the Netherlands it was a 1hr job, very easy to do. The passenger pedals are basically linked to the original pedals with steel cables. Works like a charm. A tesla isnt more difficult to install the passenger pedals as in any other ice car.

I went to this company for the install, who are also manufacturer of the passenger pedal set.

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peterclaassen.nl

 

[dduffey]

I still believe an EV with enough range to do a full workday of 4 lessons is a GREAT idea. But the Model 3 ain't it. As soon as there's a car with 320+ miles of range, great visibility, and a fairly short distance between the two front seats at a reasonable price, I'll swap out all our ICE cars for EV's. (Maybe that's the upcoming "Model 2", but I'm not married to Tesla.)

Thanks for the update. Unfortunately the "not a Model 2" will probably not have the highest range and rumors are that Elon is suggesting no steering wheel

 

[steph3393]

Actually, there are far more benefits as a commercial vehicle than as a personal vehicle. Here are a few:

• Since we average 220 miles per workday, (57K miles per year) all the math for cost savings is greatly accelerated! I've done the best math I can, and even with 100% financing, the savings, month-to-month, is greater than the difference in payments vs a $20,000 ICE car. (.11 per kWh at night, $3.25 per gallon where we are.)
• The savings for maintenance is far greater than for a personal vehicle, because an employee has to be paid for time waiting in the lobby to the shop, plus travel to get there. Plus every oil change uses a time slot that could otherwise be used productively.
• We currently pay $35 per month per vehicle for GPS tracking of our cars. That cost goes away.
• I'm hoping in the future the interior camera will be enabled and could be recorded like the dash cam, and I'm hoping it can include audio from the mic. Essentially, a form of employee supervision. We've added this to some cars already, but it's expensive.
• We've always avoided buying cars with built-in navigation, because within a few years it's obsolete. With the Model 3 not only do we not need a Garmin, we wouldn't want one. Even better, locations can be "beamed" to the car from an employee's phone as he views his schedule.
• No key exchanges. If an employee leaves, we disable their access.
• Nice cars help keep employees happy. Happy employees stay.

And some driving-school-specific stuff:

• Safety is what we do. And this is the safest car period. Can't argue with that!
• Situational awareness for the instructor: Every year, car manufacturers use less glass and more metal than the previous year, reducing visibility. (I think the trend is encouraged by competition for crash test ratings.) The result is blind spots which are usually tolerable for a driver with mirrors, but to an instructor who has no left-side mirror it's becoming harder and harder to keep a car safe. The Model 3 not only gives a great view in all directions, the rear camera can even be viewed constantly. I love that!
• Five human butts per day sit in our cars. For this, vegan leather is better than cloth, and better than leather.
• As of a couple days ago, the steering wheel is no longer leather. You know what destroys leather steering wheels fast? Sweaty palms.
• Among commercial uses, we're in the unique situation that even though we do a lot of miles, we stay local. That means we can charge at night, cheaply.

Saving the planet? Okay, sure.
Cool car? Great!
But this happens to be the best car for the money for our needs.

Hi Aquaman,
I'm a driver's ed teacher out of Illinois. We just received a Tesla through a grant and are having a very hard time getting any mechanic shop to install a break on the passenger (instructor) side of the model 3. How did you accomplish this?

 

[steph3393]

Teaching in a lr model 3 myself without issues, students love it and visibility over the shoulder is better than my previous vw polo 2018 model... Yes the steeringwheel is further away because the car is wider, but im 190cm myself so i can reach it decently+i like the legroom.

Stuff like the built in camera's are so useful to replay situations u ended up in and discuss them afterwards, also the navigation system is very nice and clear (part on the drivingtest here) and i love that i can use google streetview and sattelite view to explain some road situations with a birds eye view. This is just teaching how to drive v2.0.

You dont HAVE to use backup cameras when ur teaching them how to park for example, u can just close the cameras and let them practice the "old school" way first. Just like u can disable the regen by using the roll function (which i dont, but i do let them experience the more "ice" experience for a moment)

Big difference with the topic starter is that the students are in my car for 40-100hours before they are ready for their exams(yes its VERY difficult here to pass your test)

Pics of mine now.
View attachment 695314View attachment 695315

What kind of breaking system is this? I'm a driver's ed teacher in Illinois and just recently got a model 3 with a grant. I can not get anyone around here to install the break on the instructor side.