Model 3 - P Plate Prohibited Vehicle

[Candleflame]

That is not actually particularly relevant, since almost all Australians live and drive in a fairly narrow coastal strip of cities which is populated at a far higher density.

The dual carriageways arent as busy as europe and the country dual lane highways are also not all that busy for the most part.
A lot of the congestion here comes from not keeping to the left and people driving 80 in the overtaking lane.

 

[TSELA]

That is not actually particularly relevant, since almost all Australians live and drive in a fairly narrow coastal strip of cities which is populated at a far higher density.

With all due respect, I find it very relevant, with less than a third of the population living rural, but yet all almost two thirds of fatal collisions occurring rurally. Do you think speed is the number one cause of rural fatal accidents?

 

[cafz]

With all due respect, I find it very relevant, with less than a third of the population living rural, but yet all almost two thirds of fatal collisions occurring rurally. Do you think speed is the number one cause of rural fatal accidents?

The population density of the country overall, skewed as it is by the large arid areas of the outback with buggerall population, has no relevance to the accident rate where the people actually live.

I make no claims about the causes of rural accidents without reviewing the data. The last time I looked at data for a rural route, fatigue was heavily implicated.

 

[TSELA]

The population density of the country overall, skewed as it is by the large arid areas of the outback with buggerall population, has no relevance to the accident rate where the people actually live.

I make no claims about the causes of rural accidents without reviewing the data. The last time I looked at data for a rural route, fatigue was heavily implicated.

So hang on a minute…buggerall population, yet almost a third of the entire Australian population live in rural areas and this has no relevance to the accident rate, despite almost two thirds of the fatal road accidents occurring in these rural areas?

Fatigue is definitely not the major cause, but distraction Is.

 

[cafz]

So hang on a minute…buggerall population, yet almost a third of the entire Australian population live in rural areas and this has no relevance to the accident rate, despite almost two thirds of the fatal road accidents occurring in these rural areas?

86% of the population is urban.

It's not surprising to me that fatal accidents are more frequent in areas with higher speed roads.

Fatigue is definitely not the major cause, but distraction Is.

Sez you.

 

[meloccom]

Moderators note:
Whilst I acknowledge, even I posted off topic, I think it’s now time to return to the topic, which relates to the P plate status of a Model 3. The 2022 Model 3 RWD is still “For Review” And pretty much every other Model 3 is banned in NSW for red and green P plates.

 

[OzVic]

Evidence?

Sorry mod, just one more for Vostok since he was asking. A proper study done by NHSTA. Not the cherry-picked data used by our authorities where every crash investigator ticks the 'speeding' box and equate 50%+ of crashes to 'speeding'.

Table 8, Page 23: Link -> Study (NHSTA)

69.9% Intersections, driving onto edge of road, crossing lane lines.
17% Other cars in line (stopped, same direction, coming opposite direction)
5% Travelling too fast
2% Poor road conditions
1.2% Vehicle problems.

It makes sense to me. Intersections cause crashes. Driving out of your lane causes crashes. Humans infalability causes crashes. Very few crashes are caused by the simple act of 'speeding', especially low-level speeding, as a crash caused by excessive speed would usually require the driver to lose control of their car around a bend.

Don't believe that 63 in a 60 zone (hello Victoria) is going to kill the fairy penguins.

 

[TSELA]

Sorry mod, just one more for Vostok since he was asking. A proper study done by NHSTA. Not the cherry-picked data used by our authorities where every crash investigator ticks the 'speeding' box and equate 50%+ of crashes to 'speeding'.

Table 8, Page 23: Link -> Study (NHSTA)

69.9% Intersections, driving onto edge of road, crossing lane lines.
17% Other cars in line (stopped, same direction, coming opposite direction)
5% Travelling too fast
2% Poor road conditions
1.2% Vehicle problems.

It makes sense to me. Intersections cause crashes. Driving out of your lane causes crashes. Humans infalability causes crashes. Very few crashes are caused by the simple act of 'speeding', especially low-level speeding, as a crash caused by excessive speed would usually require the driver to lose control of their car around a bend.

Don't believe that 63 in a 60 zone (hello Victoria) is going to kill the fairy penguins.

100% spot on and most other countries have distraction as the number one cause of fatal collisions. If you read most government funded research in Australia it always relates to speed and justification of revenue raising.

 

[TSELA]

86% of the population is urban.

It's not surprising to me that fatal accidents are more frequent in areas with higher speed roads.


Sez you.

Says me? No, says most research outside of Australian government funded research.
86% live urban? I think you might have googled Shenzen, as in 2020, you will find that it was around 7 million, at 28%. Like I said just under a third? Anything else you care to make up?

 

[Candleflame]

100% spot on and most other countries have distraction as the number one cause of fatal collisions. If you read most government funded research in Australia it always relates to speed and justification of revenue raising.

I think a lot of people in Sydney or Canberra also do not understand the distances involved when traveling in WA/QLD/NT. You have these prestine empty roads which are much wider than a standard country road and actually in amazing condition -im from europe so my standards are high- and even just increasing the speed traveled from i.e. 110 to 130 or 140 makes a huge difference if you sit on that for 6-7 hours. And you slow down if theres a car coming or if the road condition change.

Yes driving for 10hours is not ideal to cover i.e. 1000kms but try telling that to the people who live there and have no choice!

I have been on the recieving end of this because I have done the drive from Townsville to Mt Isa many times - in a combustion car driving 140ish on most good sections and also in a Tesla driving 80-85kmh. Doing it at 85km/h in a Tesla is aweful. It never ends. And its boring. And there isnt even much traffic. Without autopilot youd probably go drowsy. And the issue with driving i.e. 100 for that is that you end up arriving at dusk/nighttime and then you have to watch out for kangaroos etc. All of which is way more dangerous than driving focused for 6-7 hours.

Also the QLD governments stance on overtaking road trains etc is very clear - you are NOT allowed to exceed the speed limit when overtaking. I would like to ask the traffic minister in Canberra or wherever he lives- has he ever overtaken a roadtrain going 100-103km/h at 110 km/h? No? Maybe he should do this once and then we have this discussion again.

 

[Vostok]

A proper study done by NHSTA. Not the cherry-picked data used by our authorities where every crash investigator ticks the 'speeding' box and equate 50%+ of crashes to 'speeding'.

Again - any evidence for the assertion “every crash investigator ticks the 'speeding' box”? That’s accusing all professional crash investigators and crash researchers of engaging in systematic, fraudulent conduct. Wow. You’d want to have proof of that if you ever ended up in a court.

The NHTSA study is about crashes - not fatalities - so while it is interesting and useful, it does not come anywhere near to disproving the citations I provided. Which, I might add, are supported by Australian academic institutions doing crash research. Does the Monash University Accident Research Centre and the Centre for Automotive Safety Research at Adelaide University not do “proper studies” in you view? On what evidentiary basis?

The Mod has requested this thread go back on-topic, so perhaps these posts need to be migrated to a new thread.

 

[TSELA]

Again - any evidence for the assertion “every crash investigator ticks the 'speeding' box”? That’s accusing all professional crash investigators and crash researchers of engaging in systematic, fraudulent conduct. Wow. You’d want to have proof of that if you ever ended up in a court.

The NHTSA study is about crashes - not fatalities - so while it is interesting and useful, it does not come anywhere near to disproving the citations I provided. Which, I might add, are supported by Australian academic institutions doing crash research. Does the Monash University Accident Research Centre and the Centre for Automotive Safety Research at Adelaide University not do “proper studies” in you view? On what evidentiary basis?

The Mod has requested this thread go back on-topic, so perhaps these posts need to be migrated to a new thread.

Do you know who funded the Monash University research? Professional crash investigators are not engaged in fraud and do you have evidence to suggest this? You would want to have proof to back up that conclusion.
Requesting the thread go back to the original topic is a bit rich and confident when you want to make the last post citing flawed studies.

 

[Vostok]

Do you know who funded the Monash University research? Professional crash investigators are not engaged in fraud and do you have evidence to suggest this?

I’m not the one who suggested it. OzVic made that assertion. And the moderator has requested this thread go back on topic, not me, which is not an unreasonable request.

I‘ve provided citations in support of my argument that people can read and challenge if they wish by providing other evidence. But I think is is extremely telling that so far only one poster has posted one citation in rebuttal, and it turned out that was not relevant because it was a study into all types of vehicle crashes (including low speed ones), not crashes that specifically resulted in fatalities.

Do you have any citations or evidence? Or do you have nothing but your opinion?

 

[TSELA]

I’m not the one who suggested it. OzVic made that assertion. And the moderator has requested this thread go back on topic, not me, which is not an unreasonable request.

I‘ve provided citations in support of my argument that people can read and challenge if they wish by providing other evidence. But I think is is extremely telling that so far only one poster has posted one citation in rebuttal, and it turned out that was not relevant because it was a study into all types of vehicle crashes (including low speed ones), not crashes that specifically resulted in fatalities.

Do you have any citations or evidence? Or do you have nothing but your opinion?

So far all you have done is cherry pick Australian government funded research which highlights speed as a major cause. You have not addressed my previous reply to your post, which provides an example from another country, which is contrasting to your speed statements.

Distraction is the number 1 cause of fatal motor vehicle accidents, outside of Australia. I do understand that this may be an inconvenient fact. Whether or not speed is involved, a distracted driver is the number 1 issue.

Other people also, gave examples of educating drivers through knowledge, driving courses and Vehicle automation but you chose to focus on speed alone because that what the government has instilled into drivers. Know one has dismissed speed, as being irrelevant, but it is not the major problem.

Getting back on topic. Do you have any data to show cause, that having limitations on power to weight vehicles has reduced fatalities? Do you have any data from countries who follow a similar government restriction on vehicles? How does Australia and these vehicle restricted countries compare to the rest of the world or even in Australia, as we have very different vehicle restrictions even between states. The outcomes should vary quite differently, if speed was the number cause of fatalities, especially amongst young drivers.

When looking at data, it is important to analyse everything you can find, so that a big picture can be gained.

 

[meloccom]

Moderators Note:
I can’t be here all the time to keep posts on topic.
Again the topic relates to the P plate status of a model 3, not a discussion of the affect of speed on road deaths.
I think all users have had plenty of time to make their point on the off topic.
if you don’t stop I will lock this thread.

 

[cafz]

86% live urban? I think you might have googled Shenzen, as in 2020, you will find that it was around 7 million, at 28%. Like I said just under a third? Anything else you care to make up?

If you'd bothered to click on the link I helpfully supplied you'd see where the 86% came from.

So no I did not "make it up".

Sorry meloccom, I only responded because I was accused of lying and I do not think it is fair to deny my right of reply to such an accusation.

I won't be responding to this thread any further.

 

[TSELA]

If you'd bothered to click on the link I helpfully supplied you'd see where the 86% came from.

So no I did not "make it up".

Sorry meloccom, I only responded because I was accused of lying and I do not think it is fair to deny my right of reply to such an accusation.

I won't be responding to this thread any further.

If you’d bothered to click pass your first google search you may have found something slightly more accurate than using ‘The World Bank’ of all references. But I guess that would not have suited your agenda, so no need to play the victim.

I will help you out

Rural and remote health

Around 7 million people live in rural and remote areas, which encompass many diverse locations and communities. These Australians face unique challenges due to their geographic location and often...

www.aihw.gov.au

 

[meloccom]

Moderators note:
Thread locked. Don’t say you weren’t warned.