Model S Accident/Fire

[JRP3]

Not sure why this video doesn't seem to be on the Tesla First Responder page on their website:

OK, I'm really curious why someone would anonymously negative rep me for posting this video, which addresses earlier questions about Tesla providing data to first responders, claiming it added nothing to the discussion topic? Really?

 

[scaesare]

I suspect the coolant is flammable and well, there is/are radiator(s) in the front.

Why do you suspect this? It would be an odd choice to included a flammable liquid for the most volatile part of the car... one with paths out of the sealed pack at that. I've seen earlier folks post similar assumptions.

While the owners manual for the Model S doesn't specify, and I can't find a service manual for it, the v2.5 Roadster (the latest, I believe) owners manual simply specifies a 50/50 Anti-Freeze & water mix for battery coolant:

Top-up to the MAX mark with one of thefollowing recommended solutions:
• a 50/50 mix of water and Havoline®
Extended Life Antifreeze Coolant-PG
• pre-mixed Sierra Antifreeze Coolant-PG,
or a 50/50 mix of water and full-strength
Sierra Antifreeze Coolant-PG

Anti-Freeze is perfectly capable of dealing with the temps expected within normal battery pack operation of the Model S, and is non-flammable.

 

[EdA]

Is there in the US some kind of a department that has to make sure that the roads are clean, and that there is no debris or any kind of "large metallic objects" lying in the middle of the road?

If there is they may be shut down

 

[yobigd20]

Perhaps this whole situation could have been avoided If there was native Waze integration on the console, the driver could have been warned "Warning: object on road ahead!" This has actually saved me a few times already on the NJT turnpike with exploded truck tire treads. I have the app on my phone binded through Bluetooth, but it would be nice if Tesla added integrated native support for this.

In addition, it also helps make driving decisions in response to the voice alerts for "accident ahead", "police ahead", "traffic jam ahead" and alerts for other various road hazards.

I'll tell ya though that "object on road ahead" alert is awesome bc of how low the MS is. This added info is critical in heavy traffic.

 

[JRP3]

Plus if it had air suspension the car could have quickly gone to max height, and jumped over the obstacle :biggrin:

 

[efusco]

OK, I'm really curious why someone would anonymously negative rep me for posting this video, which addresses earlier questions about Tesla providing data to first responders, claiming it added nothing to the discussion topic? Really?

There is a jerkoff (or more than one) doing that. I've gotten two negative points and in several years here never had one before. A few people are all flustered that we have the audacity to speculate or continue this thread because in their superior wisdom have decided that we lesser humans shouldn't be doing so. Takes real guts to anonymously give negative rep points as if they matter to anyone, but it's easier than engaging in actual discussion like a mature adult.

In any case, I'll continue to speculate. And my speculation is that there will be a reexamination of the battery undercarriage shielding after this incident. While I fully agree that once it caught fire that the battery design was highly successful in containing the fire and allowing the safe exit of the occupant from the vehicle. I think that's tremendous for the design. That said, not all accidents will allow for such rapid egress. Many vehicles leave the road, are involved in roll-overs (albeit even that is tough in a Model S) and other serious mechanisms that make extrication extremely time consuming. A hot flame like that with trapped occupants could become fatal. While it's clear that it is impossible to prevent battery puncture in all situations, with Elon's stated goal of making this the safest vehicle you can buy, it seems in keeping with that objective to do whatever is necessary to bolster the battery protection if that is now revealed as having hazardous potential. Perhaps Kevlar or carbon fiber impregnated shielding would help to reduce weight, perhaps not (more speculation!). In any case, even if no changes are ultimately made, any business worth its salt will reconsider their options. And better that Tesla do it on their own before another similar incident occurs and they are mandated to do so by the government.

 

[BobHodgen]

I'm not convinced that the battery was involved in a big way. Looking at the video the flames are orange and red and the smoke is black, indicating a low temperature fire and incomplete combustion.
I've looked at a lot of lithium battery fires on youtube, most give off a white smoke and are very energetic. The video just looked like burning plastic.
If the Tesla's battery was fully involved I'd expect a series of explosions, like fireworks, as the individual cells pop off. There would be rapid venting of very hot gas and lots of white smoke.
If the battery was breached Tesla's design worked well to contain the damage to a small group of cells. In the end this could validate Tesla's battery design.

 

[VolkerP]

Perhaps this whole situation could have been avoided If there was native Waze integration on the console.
I'll tell ya though that "object on road ahead" alert is awesome bc of how low the MS is. This added info is critical in heavy traffic.

If truly integrated, it should raise the air suspension to max in that situation

While the owners manual for the Model S doesn't specify, and I can't find a service manual for it, the v2.5 Roadster (the latest, I believe) owners manual simply specifies a 50/50 Anti-Freeze & water mix for battery coolant

Version 1.0.9 of model_s_owners_manual_europe.pdf page 7.16 specifies G-48 ethylene-glycol coolant (HOAT). Wikipedia describes Ethylene glycol as an antifreeze agent:

Specifically, a mixture of 60% ethylene glycol and 40% water freezes at −45 °C (−49 °F)

I don't know if it is possible to ignite such a mixture, but I can imagine it contributes to an ongoing combustion.

maybe there should be some kind of additional protection (made of carbon fiber?) under the battery pack?

It was reported that the car was a signature, so it is a 85kWh and has all 16 module bays of the battery pack loaded with cells. There is some speculation that the 60kWh model only uses 14 module bays, and that the 2 modules in the "dome" are missing. I wonder if a 60kWh model would have fared better in this accident with the pack being punctured? :wink:

 

[mknox]

It was a large metal object that hit a very vulnerable spot. What do you think would have happened if it hit the gas tank of an ICE car. My prediction: Dead driver. I am happy to be getting a Tesla, which will keep me alive in such a case.

I've had two ICE gas tanks punctured by road debris and all that happened was that the fuel leaked out. My father had a station wagon gas tank that was mounted kind of up in a side fender drop to the ground when the straps the hold it rusted through and he was stranded, but no fire. On the other hand, I've seen or heard of fires caused by 12v electrical faults and overheated brakes. I had a GMC Jimmy dash catch on fire when the dash wiring shorted out somehow. The fact is that cars of all stripes catch on fire sometimes, but I don't think all this "you're lucky you don't have an ICE" stuff is helpful.

 

[brandonmbeard]

Most of the car fires in the world aren't because of gasoline or oil, rather they are results of 12V system failures. So it seems that the concept of a battery catching fire is not limited to a Tesla.

 

[mep]

Tesla fire most watched Tesla video on YouTube?

It saddens me that to see that the Tesla Model S fire video may now be the most watched video about Tesla on YouTube.
The marvel of engineering received 1,781,000 views (How the Tesla Model S is Made -- Behind The Scenes -- The Window - Wired - YouTube).
The Car and Driver report received 1,462,957 views (Car and Driver: Tested : 2013 Tesla Model S - Review - CAR and DRIVER - YouTube).
The great video where the MS is taken on an M5 received 1,364,866 views (Tesla Model S vs BMW M5 Drag Race - YouTube).

The MS fire video as of this morning has received 1,840,597 views (Tesla car on fire - YouTube).

While the views of the other videos were amounted over many months the views on that fire are only from three days. Check out the trend which I have plotted below. Some put the definition of "going viral" at 5 million views, others at only 1 million. Regardless it appears that this thing has not reached its climax yet.

 

[fuelsman]

There is not the comprehensive inspection program in the US to clean up and prevent road debris like in most of Europe. Road debris causes 25,000 accidents and 800 deaths a year. Not only is there fallen debris from unsecured loads but also US trucks are allowed to use retread tires that release large pieces of tread when they fail. Road debris can cause fires in gas powered cars - either by damaging the fuel system or puncturing the oil pan.

 

[JohnQ]

I've had two ICE gas tanks punctured by road debris and all that happened was that the fuel leaked out. My father had a station wagon gas tank that was mounted kind of up in a side fender drop to the ground when the straps the hold it rusted through and he was stranded, but no fire. On the other hand, I've seen or heard of fires caused by 12v electrical faults and overheated brakes. I had a GMC Jimmy dash catch on fire when the dash wiring shorted out somehow. The fact is that cars of all stripes catch on fire sometimes, but I don't think all this "you're lucky you don't have an ICE" stuff is helpful.

I agree; and would say that the fire is usually not initiated by a gas tank puncture but rather batteries, overheating oil on the engine, etc. The gas lines/tank can then add fuel to the fire since there is no compartmentalization.

The headliner on my Saab started smoldering when it vibrated loose and rested on the engine for too long. Freaky to have smoke billow out of the hood while driving through the Ft McHenry tunnel in Baltimore. Just pulled to the side of the road once through the tunnel and tossed snow on it but could have been worse.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not convinced that the battery was involved in a big way. Looking at the video the flames are orange and red and the smoke is black, indicating a low temperature fire and incomplete combustion.
I've looked at a lot of lithium battery fires on youtube, most give off a white smoke and are very energetic. The video just looked like burning plastic.
If the Tesla's battery was fully involved I'd expect a series of explosions, like fireworks, as the individual cells pop off. There would be rapid venting of very hot gas and lots of white smoke.
If the battery was breached Tesla's design worked well to contain the damage to a small group of cells. In the end this could validate Tesla's battery design.

It's not the lithium that burns in a battery fire like this. Free lithium does burn white hot; in the case of these batteries the failure generates a large quantity of heat that ignites other materials such as insulation and plastics. I don't know if there are combustible gases that are also released. Someone with more expertise than I have can comment with more detail.

 

[texex91]

Regardless it appears that this thing has not reached its climax yet.

And sadly, until Tesla addresses it in some sort of fashion, it probably won't.

 

[NigelM]

It was reported that the car was a signature, so it is a 85kWh and has all 16 module bays of the battery pack loaded with cells. There is some speculation that the 60kWh model only uses 14 module bays, and that the 2 modules in the "dome" are missing. I wonder if a 60kWh model would have fared better in this accident with the pack being punctured? :wink:

Ah but, it was speculated as a Signature early in this thread as it's VIN was/is supposedly *0489. First I'll point out that in our original spreadsheet VIN 0489 was identified as a California vehicle and not WA, secondly it could have been #10489 or even #20489. The VIN might be wrongly reported up-thread, the car probably isn't a Sig and the battery size could be 85 or 60kWh. Just shows how our speculation can lead to conclusions about the battery size which may or may not be completely wrong.

 

[brandonmbeard]

I'm utilizing this dip on the stock price to load up and get a couple of months of payments paid for when it goes back up after Tesla reports what the real issue was.

 

[Norbert]

According to all the information we have, Model S is still the safest car on the road.

Even in terms of fires, at least as far as we know, no one has died in a Model S yet (although that day will have to come), fire or not.

And unless there are fires we don't know about, the number of Tesla cars having a fire is *at least* 5x lower than the average of ICE cars.


So if played right, this can actual be an opportunity to make the safety of Model S more well known. (Once the biological fire scare calms down, that is.)

 

[texex91]

According to all the information we have, Model S is still the safest car on the road.

Even in terms of fires, at least as far as we know, no one has died in a Model S yet (although that day will have to come), fire or not.

And unless there are fires we don't know about, the number of Tesla cars having a fire is *at least* 5x lower than the average of ICE cars.


So if played right, this can actual be an opportunity to make the safety of Model S more well known. (Once the biological fire scare calms down, that is.)

Yep still safest according to all reports. It is amazing how viral something like this can get so fast. Wish Tesla would address, so we can all move on.

Stock is up, nothing has changed safety wise, happy drivers, great car and technology. That is pretty much it for now.

 

[Merrill]

I had a 1976 Jaguar XJS V-12 and while driving at night heard a pop then smoke from under the hood, pulled off the road and slowly opened the hood. There were flames near the injector rail and the car was still able to run. Put the fire out with my jacket and drove home. Once in the garage, you could see thru the distributor cap and the rotor spinning. These were notorius for having no room for the engine to breath and injector leakage near the distributor cap, which created gas vapor and ignition from spark at the plug wires going into the distributor cap. Jaguar repaired the issue and updated the injector rails and piping, later models had a redesigned injector rail configuration. I know, why would I continue to drive after this happened? I was young and daring and stupid.

 

[BriansTesla]

Over many years I have personally seen dozens of VWs that caught fire. The vast majority were from fuel leaks in the engine compartment.

Usually occupants get away from the car and a very few fires were put out by a fire extinguisher.