Model X Advanced Engineering on Plan - Tesla Q3 Update 2011

[Adm]

It is essentially the cabin interior/exterior that will change. From a theoretical perspective, Model S owners should one day be able to swap out the sedan for an “X” cabin. The battery, wheels and frame would be the same.

I doubt that this would be possible. Model X will be a totally different animal with different needs in ride height and suspension. If the cabin will be different than so will be wiring and tubing. I think it would require a time consuming, uneconomical transformation.

 

[shark2k]

It is essentially the cabin interior/exterior that will change. From a theoretical perspective, Model S owners should one day be able to swap out the sedan for an “X” cabin. The battery, wheels and frame would be the same.

I highly doubt that is the case as car companies have been using the same platforms for different models and they haven't been able to do what you mentioned. There are still changes that need to be done. This website gave a decent over view: Platform Sharing - Car Maintenance and Car Repairs - DriverSide

-Shark2k

 

[AnOutsider]

I highly doubt that is the case as car companies have been using the same platforms for different models and they haven't been able to do what you mentioned. There are still changes that need to be done. This website gave a decent over view: Platform Sharing - Car Maintenance and Car Repairs - DriverSide

-Shark2k

Shark, that was a REALLY good read, thanks for that.

 

[kgb]

I'm wondering if, with the taller form factor of an SUV, TM is planning on a "double-stack" battery pack. The Model S has 85 kW-h along the floor, but a double-stack would have 170 kW-h. Even with the efficiency lost from the added weight (and wind resistance of a taller, more SUV-like vehicle), such a huge battery pack could possibly breach the 500 mile range mark. Just a thought... "Patent pending, patent pending, patent pending," [as I point to all of you]. (Yet another Simpsons reference).

 

[Larry Chanin]

I'm wondering if, with the taller form factor of an SUV, TM is planning on a "double-stack" battery pack. The Model S has 85 kW-h along the floor, but a double-stack would have 170 kW-h. Even with the efficiency lost from the added weight (and wind resistance of a taller, more SUV-like vehicle), such a huge battery pack could possibly breach the 500 mile range mark. Just a thought... "Patent pending, patent pending, patent pending," [as I point to all of you]. (Yet another Simpsons reference).

Hi,

Based on current technology and economics, don't you think that such a battery would weigh more that a ton, and cost more than $50,000?

Larry

 

[vfx]

a double-stack...

Said that twice here months ago.

Tap tap no erasies.

 

[WhiteKnight]

Said that twice here months ago.

Yeah the double stack has been mentioned already - gonna be hard to get the patent .

The issue with the double stack as Larry mentions is the cost. At $300/kWh, a 170 kWh "double-stack pack" (trademark / copyright) would cost $51,000 BEFORE the 25% gross margins that Tesla has promised investors ($68,000 to consumers) so you've got the battery alone costing more than the 230 mile Model S.

I believe that one of the huge advantages that the Model X will bring is the ability to offer AWD, seating for 7 et cetera without the need to ride high (over the transmission tunnel) therefore having a low step in height. Then with air suspension you can rise up higher if you want to. Double stack would prevent this.

With that said the extended wheelbase will provide room for more batteries. This might allow the Model X to beat the Model S in terms of range but you'll have to pay for those extra batteries for sure.

 

[vfx]

Assuming the X has the same travel miles as the S (hard to go range backwards of a "camping" vehicle) I would guess they would put in enough extra batteries to offset the greater weight and less aerodynamic flow of a SUV. That is unless if by then batteries have improved enough to not need the bump in miles.

 

[kgb]

Said that twice here months ago.

Tap tap no erasies.

Granted, but not said on this thread. Sorry I was unaware of your brilliant idea, I had no intention of stealing it. As for the patent, my double-stack concept had batteries with half the height, so they'd be half the cost and half the weight. There! That negates your concerns about weight and cost. But seriously, consider the double stack idea "dead." I will not bring it up again until the next person claims it as his/her idea.

 

[shark2k]

Shark, that was a REALLY good read, thanks for that.

No problem.

-Shark2k

 

[Norbert]

Said that twice here months ago.

Tap tap no erasies.

If this idea now gets assigned to a specific person, then I'd like to point out I mentioned it on 2/17/11, if not earlier. Were you earlier than that?

EDIT: Make that 2/6/11.

 

[vfx]

If this idea now gets assigned to a specific person, then I'd like to point out I mentioned it on 2/17/11, if not earlier. Were you earlier than that?

It's your's. Without an tangible return, I'm too lazy to look it up.

 

[Norbert]

It's your's. Without an tangible return, I'm too lazy to look it up.

I was curious how it came about and did a bit of digging. It seems Doug and you were discussing sub-packs, and "stacking" them, in Nov 2010 in the NEW RAV4 EV thread, but it seemed to be more about distributing a pack (horizontally) to multiple places in a car, though I'm not sure what you meant with "stacking", which does suggest a vertical arrangement:

Meh... who's to say those boxes aren't a simple form factor they already had for testing purposes. I see a lot of (what look like) mounting tabs there that are unused. So it's probably not specifically purpose built for this RAV4. Even if it is, much of it looks like anodized aluminum which is pretty easy to bang out on a CNC machine.

Each of those packs appear to be comprised of four sub-packs. These sub-packs might be the same as what's being used for the Model S pack (which appears to have 14). Just a guess.

That's in line with the modular pack idea. A single one could be used on a tiny car and they could fit them in a trunk or wheel well area if needed for another prototype. Paired with the PEM and motor these stacking packs would be a nice aftermarket product!

The more specific idea to stack two complete packs on top of each other, taking advantage of the clearance of an SUV, was *spelled out* in this message:

Given that SUVs usually have a higher clearance, I was wondering whether they could make it so that it allows stacking two battery packs... :smile:

But perhaps you already thought of that in your message above, I don't know, it is certainly the same principle on an abstract level. In any case, I described it more clearly a bit later for the purpose of using Lithium Air batteries which have a lower power output:

Regarding the volume, the Model S is repeatedly mentioned to have lots of space available. Perhaps lowers the expectations for a simple replacement pack which could achieve "vacation" range, though, if the energy density per volume is really limited to 2x. For that, it might have to be a bit SUV-like, stacking two (or even 3?) packs on top of each other. Then they could run in parallel, allowing higher input and output. 2 packs would give 1000 miles with 60 kW, with the weight still being much lighter than "real" upcoming packs.

In your message, you referred to a pre-existing "modular pack idea", and I didn't find what this refers to, in the thread up until then. I suppose to have a battery pack consisting of modular sub-packs is an almost ancient idea.

 

[Norbert]

I'm wondering if, with the taller form factor of an SUV, TM is planning on a "double-stack" battery pack. The Model S has 85 kW-h along the floor, but a double-stack would have 170 kW-h. Even with the efficiency lost from the added weight (and wind resistance of a taller, more SUV-like vehicle), such a huge battery pack could possibly breach the 500 mile range mark. Just a thought... "Patent pending, patent pending, patent pending," [as I point to all of you]. (Yet another Simpsons reference).

As WhiteKnight pointed out, the problem (with current prices) is cost. But I think that is the only reason not to do it, so I think as soon as prices go down, they will... unless by then, energy density is so high that it isn't necessary anymore.

 

[GSP]

....The issue with the double stack as Larry mentions is the cost. At $300/kWh, a 170 kWh "double-stack pack" (trademark / copyright) would cost $51,000 BEFORE the 25% gross margins that Tesla has promised investors ($68,000 to consumers) so you've got the battery alone costing more than the 230 mile Model S.

Yes. That is why I suggested the "two-pack" solution for Rolls Royce in the 102EX thread. $50,000 and 1000 Kg should be acceptable, and the big, comfy, aerodynamic-as-a-brick Roller, and its no-comprimise customers, need the energy.

GSP

 

[vfx]

I was curious how it came about and did a bit of digging. It seems Doug and you were discussing sub-packs, and "stacking" them, in Nov 2010 in the NEW RAV4 EV thread, but it seemed to be more about distributing a pack (horizontally) to multiple places in a car, though I'm not sure what you meant with "stacking", which does suggest a vertical arrangement:...

I was talking about putting a "module pack" in different places in a car wherever they might fit including stacking them on top of each other if the space was tall enough (like a trunk).

The more specific idea to stack two complete packs on top of each other, taking advantage of the clearance of an SUV, was *spelled out* in this message:...

The only ref I found for stacking a full battery for the X was this one 10-10-2011 10:47PM that mentions an earlier post I had made somewhere before the X was even thread-worthy.

I had suggested they stack two packs up.

 

[Brandon332]

Looking back at these old posts is very funny. How the times change....

 

[ohmman]

Looking back at these old posts is very funny. How the times change....

Interestingly, if you look at the Model 3 threads, you'll find that the more they change, the more they stay the same..