Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)

[AWDtsla]

If he wasn't paying attention/fell asleep and plowed into the barrier in the Model X when AP was off, then in that case it's 100% his fault. But *AP* is what eventually steered him right into the barrier. Tesla repeatedly trying to throw a dead man under the bus saying he was inattentive, received many warnings, blah blah blah, does not change the fact AP steered his car directly into a concrete barrier at highway speeds is just ridiculous. That remains a stone cold fact.

But everyone SHOULD know the car may do this. Not the least of which is because the manual says so. This lawsuit is going nowhere, especially after the claim the guy said it was making incorrect decisions at this very point.

Let's compare this to the GM ignition scandal. Do you think the people that died in cars that had their ignitions shut off and the drivers were NOT wearing a seatbelt deserved to be included in the settlement? They ignored a safety feature after all (like you are saying William ignored the alerts from AP).

Not even an analogy. The ignition was not supposed to turn off, especially due to a known failure. In Tesla's case, the driver is told repeatedly it may fail and you MUST keep attention and control.

 

[SMAlset]

The one thing that stood out as new to me in the latest news here was this statement from his wife:

"Syvonne tells Dan Noyes Walter complained that the Autopilot appeared to be malfunctioning, steering toward that same barrier in Mountain View on several occasions.

Sevonne Huang: "And he want to show me, but a lot of time it doesn't happen."

 

[MXWing]

If he wasn't paying attention/fell asleep and plowed into the barrier in the Model X when AP was off, then in that case it's 100% his fault. But *AP* is what eventually steered him right into the barrier. Tesla repeatedly trying to throw a dead man under the bus saying he was inattentive, received many warnings, blah blah blah, does not change the fact AP steered his car directly into a concrete barrier at highway speeds is just ridiculous. That remains a stone cold fact.

Tesla doing everything but dig up his body and spitting on it. They are desperate to maintain the narrative that using AP is much safer than a car without AP, to the extent they will stomp on a dead man's grave to maintain that narrative. It is frankly disgusting.

Let's compare this to the GM ignition scandal. Do you think the people that died in cars that had their ignitions shut off and the drivers were NOT wearing a seatbelt deserved to be included in the settlement? They ignored a safety feature after all (like you are saying William ignored the alerts from AP).

The barrier was hit head on. The barrier wasn't side swiped from AP deciding to ram into it so violent and so quickly that no human could hit the brake.

IF and even "IF" AP put him into the lane that "sets" up the collision with the barrier, Walter had sufficient time to at least tap
BRAKE BRAKE BRAKE BRAKE BRAKE BRAKE to save his life.

I'll quote this again:

steered his car directly into a concrete barrier at highway speeds is just ridiculous. That remains a stone cold fact.

Any car in any lane goes into some kind of barrier eventually. If I'm on AP and I fail to stop at a stop sign at a T intersection, did AP steer me into someone's house? That is a stone cold fact that AP allowed me to go through the stop sign, through the shrubs, through the fence and into someone's house.

LOL at this 'fake outrage' you know NOTHING about AP but sit here and lecture to TESLA DRIVERS who use the system everyday on 'how things work'.

As good a driver as I am, I appreciate release from maintaining speed and staying in lanes so I can get a bigger view of the overall environment.

 

[MXWing]

The one thing that stood out as new to me in the latest news here was this statement from his wife:

"Syvonne tells Dan Noyes Walter complained that the Autopilot appeared to be malfunctioning, steering toward that same barrier in Mountain View on several occasions.

Sevonne Huang: "And he want to show me, but a lot of time it doesn't happen."

My wife would have been

"Pick your car or pick your family you DUMB F" if I was reporting such things to her.

This is "hold my beer" level of stupidity when one intentionally thrill seeks death when already possessing the knowledge that it's "dangerous".

But only him out of the tens of thousands of Tesla drivers ultimately had a problem there.

 

[MXWing]

I cant believe that the wife and the personal injury lawyer don't mention CalTrans at all and their negligent barrier and lane line maintenance.

Cultural face-saving issues at play too.

I even more respect Joshua Brown's family and lawyers for not exploiting a tragic accident that ulimately was due to the negligent acts of the driver and other third parties. Accidents happen.

Thanks to Tesla for giving us the tools to make accidents even less likely to happen to us -- at least those of us who do as instructed every time AP is engaged:

Keep hands on wheel and ready to take over at any time.

Exactly. If there was a party to go after, it should have been Caltrans. Not for causing the accident, but not giving Walter a probable chance to survive.

I am wondering if you are Asian... if not that is an incredibly astute observation on how that culture works in regards to face saving. Of course the family can't just go with the wife being a widow and the children orphans because someone was more interested in tending to Farmville crops than focusing on the road and the sacrosanct responsibility of driving a 6500lb+ vehicle at highway speeds.

The pathetic thing is Tesla SHOULDN'T have to tell us to hold the wheel. It SHOULDN'T have to nag, and it SHOULDN'T have to insist on applying torq on the wheel.

Just because I'm not resting my foot on the brake (thanks EAP/TACC!) doesn't mean I can't stomp on that brake in 1/4th of one second.

The wheel SHOULD be treated the same way (or resting on the wheel should be sufficient) but its clowns like this which ruins it for everyone else.

 

[NerdUno]

The barrier was hit head on. The barrier wasn't side swiped from AP deciding to ram into it so violent and so quickly that no human could hit the brake...

Just because I'm not resting my foot on the brake (thanks EAP/TACC!) doesn't mean I can't stomp on that brake in 1/4th of one second.

I'm not sure you know that the car didn't dart into the path of the barrier in the last couple of seconds. The fact that AutoPilot was engaged doesn't mean that it steered him directly into the barrier for the last 10 seconds of his life. On numerous occasions, we've had AutoPilot function properly and then abruptly dart into another lane of traffic or toward a wall or a ditch without any reason for the abrupt change of direction. Interestingly, we've never seen anything similar in our Nissan Rogue which actually uses Mobileye's EyeQ technology much like Tesla's AP1.

Tesla improperly disclosed information about this crash during an ongoing investigation apparently to try and shape public opinion and the investigation's outcome more to their liking. Perhaps we should wait to draw any actual conclusions until someone other than Tesla has examined what actually happened.

And, by the way, unless you have some super-human qualities, the average reaction time for most drivers is more like 1.5 to 3 seconds, not a quarter of a second as you've suggested. At 60 MPH, that means the car would travel 90 to 250 feet before your foot ever hit the brake. And then there's the extra time that it would actually take to stop the car. From 60MPH, that number would be another 180 feet. If you add the two together, we're talking about the length of a football field (at least) to avoid a calamity at 60MPH. Google is your friend!

 

[bro1999]

The barrier was hit head on. The barrier wasn't side swiped from AP deciding to ram into it so violent and so quickly that no human could hit the brake.

IF and even "IF" AP put him into the lane that "sets" up the collision with the barrier, Walter had sufficient time to at least tap
BRAKE BRAKE BRAKE BRAKE BRAKE BRAKE to save his life.

I'll quote this again:


Any car in any lane goes into some kind of barrier eventually. If I'm on AP and I fail to stop at a stop sign at a T intersection, did AP steer me into someone's house? That is a stone cold fact that AP allowed me to go through the stop sign, through the shrubs, through the fence and into someone's house.

LOL at this 'fake outrage' you know NOTHING about AP but sit here and lecture to TESLA DRIVERS who use the system everyday on 'how things work'.

As good a driver as I am, I appreciate release from maintaining speed and staying in lanes so I can get a bigger view of the overall environment.

You seem to be stuck in this belief that ONLY the driver or ONLY Tesla can be at fault, and that it is not possible for fault to be shared by more than 1 party. I seem to be talking to a brick wall in trying to reason with you that Tesla does own a slice of the blame pie. Whether it's 100%, 50% , 20%, or 5%, that's for the authorities (and/or a court of law) to decide, but you are on autopilot with your steadfast belief Tesla is blameless. Tesla can't hide behind the "beta" tag forever.

In the Joshua Brown crash (where I believe he was more at fault than William Huang), the NTSB ruled Tesla was partially to blame in that incident. I have a feeling they will come to a similar conclusion in this incident too.

 

[bro1999]

I am wondering if you are Asian... if not that is an incredibly astute observation on how that culture works in regards to face saving. Of course the family can't just go with the wife being a widow and the children orphans because someone was more interested in tending to Farmville crops than focusing on the road and the sacrosanct responsibility of driving a 6500lb+ vehicle at highway speeds.

Now, in addition to racial stereotyping, you are introducing 100% conjecture based on nothing more than your biased views on what you THINK may have happened. It's just as likely he was messing with that huge, distracting center display trying to change the music selection as much as he was "tending to Farmville crops".

Who the hell plays that game anymore anyways?

 

[MXWing]

I'm not sure you know that the car didn't dart into the path of the barrier in the last couple of seconds. The fact that AutoPilot was engaged doesn't mean that it steered him directly into the barrier for the last 10 seconds of his life. On numerous occasions, we've had AutoPilot function properly and then abruptly dart into another lane of traffic or toward a wall or a ditch without any reason for the abrupt change of direction. Interestingly, we've never seen anything similar in our Nissan Rogue which actually uses Mobileye's EyeQ technology much like Tesla's AP1.

Tesla improperly disclosed information about this crash during an ongoing investigation apparently to try and shape public opinion and the investigation's outcome more to their liking. Perhaps we should wait to draw any actual conclusions until someone other than Tesla has examined what actually happened.

If your eyes were on the road, was there sufficient time for a human being to hit the brakes? I personally and I suspect other attentive drivers need 1/4th of a second. 10 seconds is 40x the time I need, 5 seconds is 20x the time I need.

Maybe they hit the brakes and still hit the barrier anyway but at least it would have been at a reduced speed. The ZERO EFFORT, and ZERO ATTEMPTS to BRAKE is very telling.

You seem to be stuck in this belief that ONLY the driver or ONLY Tesla can be at fault, and that it is not possible for fault to be shared by more than 1 party. I seem to be talking to a brick wall in trying to reason with you that Tesla does own a slice of the blame pie. Whether it's 100%, 50% , 20%, or 5%, that's for the authorities (and/or a court of law) to decide, but you are on autopilot with your steadfast belief Tesla is blameless. Tesla can't hide behind the "beta" tag forever.

In the Joshua Brown crash (where I believe he was more at fault than William Huang), the NTSB ruled Tesla was partially to blame in that incident. I have a feeling they will come to a similar conclusion in this incident too.

There's no grey area fault. Unless you can prove to me that Tesla OVERRODE driver input. It doesn't so it's a rhetorical question anyway.

Tesla's 'partial blame' was not being annoying enough with the nags. Completely irrelevant to the core issue - DRIVER INATTENTION

There's almost nothing to discuss here if people focused on the root and core of the issue. DRIVER INATTENTION

 

[mongo]

I'm not sure you know that the car didn't dart into the path of the barrier in the last couple of seconds.

Because, as has been posted many times, it was reported that it didn't.

CHP Redwood City‏ @CHP_RedwoodCity Mar 23
Update on collision on US-101southbound at SR-85 Blue Tesla driving southbound on US-10, driving at freeway speeds on the gore point dividing the SR-85 carpool flyover and the carpool lane on US-101 southbound collided with the attenuator barrier and caught fire

 

[MXWing]

Now, in addition to racial stereotyping, you are introducing 100% conjecture based on nothing more than your biased views on what you THINK may have happened. It's just as likely he was messing with that huge, distracting center display trying to change the music selection as much as he was "tending to Farmville crops".

Who the hell plays that game anymore anyways?

Farmville is an analogy for anything
1 - Dumb
2 - Wasting time
3 - Not paying attention
4 - Unfocused priorities

He could have been trying to draw kanji in Wechat for all we know. Or getting Slacker to play the song he wanted. Doesn't matter. Driver was inattentive.

 

[MXWing]

Because, as has been posted many times, it was reported that it didn't.

CHP Redwood City‏ @CHP_RedwoodCity Mar 23
Update on collision on US-101southbound at SR-85 Blue Tesla driving southbound on US-10, driving at freeway speeds on the gore point dividing the SR-85 carpool flyover and the carpool lane on US-101 southbound collided with the attenuator barrier and caught fire

Get out of here with the facts.

We don't want to be supporting the narrative that it's not Tesla's fault here.

 

[MXWing]

'm not sure you know that the car didn't dart into the path of the barrier in the last couple of seconds. The fact that AutoPilot was engaged doesn't mean that it steered him directly into the barrier for the last 10 seconds of his life. On numerous occasions, we've had AutoPilot function properly and then abruptly dart into another lane of traffic or toward a wall or a ditch without any reason for the abrupt change of direction. Interestingly, we've never seen anything similar in our Nissan Rogue which actually uses Mobileye's EyeQ technology much like Tesla's AP1.

Tesla improperly disclosed information about this crash during an ongoing investigation apparently to try and shape public opinion and the investigation's outcome more to their liking. Perhaps we should wait to draw any actual conclusions until someone other than Tesla has examined what actually happened.

And, by the way, unless you have some super-human qualities, the average reaction time for most drivers is more like 1.5 to 3 seconds, not a quarter of a second as you've suggested. At 60 MPH, that means the car would travel 90 to 250 feet before your foot ever hit the brake. And then there's the extra time that it would actually take to stop the car. From 60MPH, that number would be another 180 feet. If you add the two together, we're talking about the length of a football field (at least) to avoid a calamity at 60MPH. Google is your friend!

Because, as has been posted many times, it was reported that it didn't.

CHP Redwood City‏ @CHP_RedwoodCity Mar 23
Update on collision on US-101southbound at SR-85 Blue Tesla driving southbound on US-10, driving at freeway speeds on the gore point dividing the SR-85 carpool flyover and the carpool lane on US-101 southbound collided with the attenuator barrier and caught fire

What's up?

So when you are going through a green light, and a car makes a left turn on a red light - your reaction time is up to 3 SECONDS?

In 3 seconds, you would plow through that driver, and push him into 3 other cars.

I could have a 6 pack of beer and my reaction time would be faster than 3 seconds. Let's be real here.

I never said full stop. I said even 'touching' the brake.

Remember also, an attentive driver is "primed to react. I'm not talking about waking drivers up from a dead sleep and asking them to do a task in 1/4th second.

When you are looking down the road and observing other cars, you are ready to take action no matter what happens.

 

[bro1999]

If your eyes were on the road, was there sufficient time for a human being to hit the brakes? I personally and I suspect other attentive drivers need 1/4th of a second. 10 seconds is 40x the time I need, 5 seconds is 20x the time I need.

Your 1/4 second reaction time is pretty amazing. Even the best race car drivers in the world can't react to a hazard much quicker than 0.2 seconds. If Tesla plugged your brain into their neural net, all AP problems would be solved instantly.
Reaction Times

There's no grey area fault. Unless you can prove to me that Tesla OVERRODE driver input. It doesn't so it's a rhetorical question anyway.

Tesla's 'partial blame' was not being annoying enough with the nags. Completely irrelevant to the core issue - DRIVER INATTENTION

There's almost nothing to discuss here if people focused on the root and core of the issue. DRIVER INATTENTION

The NTSB found a grey area with the Joshua Brown crash, that's for sure. There is much more black and white in the William Huang crash.

Even if I were to agree with everything you said (which I don't), Tesla's insistence on placing blame all on the driver before the investigation is close to being completed is in incredibly poor taste. I hope the family's lawyer throws the book at Tesla in the courts.

 

[MXWing]

Your 1/4 second reaction time is pretty amazing. Even the best race car drivers in the world can't react to a hazard much quicker than 0.2 seconds. If Tesla plugged your brain into their neural net, all AP problems would be solved instantly.
Reaction Times

Yes, my reaction is 1/4 second but that's not even the point. Say you pick the upper extreme, 1 second. Did Walter have at least ONE WHOLE SECOND TO TOUCH THE BRAKE?

If so, case closed.

 

[bro1999]

He could have been trying to draw kanji in Wechat for all we know. Or getting Slacker to play the song he wanted. Doesn't matter. Driver was inattentive.

You are debating a point that's not being contested. No one is questioning that the driver was most likely not paying attention when the crash happened. The point is that a piece of software that's advertised offering a semi-autonomous driving experience should not be steering a car straight into a concrete barrier in almost ideal weather conditions. There are all these warnings and prompts that have to be acknowledged, yet Tesla owners using AP are continuing to plow into large objects on the road. Why is that? All these people are horrible drivers that like ignoring safety warnings? Or how about they are lulled into a false sense of security ("hey, AP is 40% safer! I'm bulletproof while driving a Tesla!") due to misleading advertising? Or how about Tesla's programming is not up to snuff, but they decide to unleash features under the beta label so their customers can help iron out the bugs, with a few unfortunate souls perishing in the process?

 

[MXWing]

yet Tesla owners using AP are continuing to plow into large objects on the road.

How many Tesla owners with how many miles are "continuing to plow into large objects?"

I wait your

Plowing into road objects with AP activated / Miles driven ratio.

Let's see it.

 

[brkaus]

You are debating a point that's not being contested. No one is questioning that the driver was most likely not paying attention when the crash happened. The point is that a piece of software that's advertised offering a semi-autonomous driving experience should not be steering a car straight into a concrete barrier in almost ideal weather conditions. There are all these warnings and prompts that have to be acknowledged, yet Tesla owners using AP are continuing to plow into large objects on the road. Why is that? All these people are horrible drivers that like ignoring safety warnings? Or how about they are lulled into a false sense of security ("hey, AP is 40% safer! I'm bulletproof while driving a Tesla!") due to misleading advertising? Or how about Tesla's programming is not up to snuff, but they decide to unleash features under the beta label so their customers can help iron out the bugs, with a few unfortunate souls perishing in the process?

The piece of software says "keep hands on wheel". I do keep hands on wheel at all times. Everyone should. I use AP 80%+ of the time. It really helps. It actually does detect my hands on the wheel. I can feel and see if it is doing anything stupid.

It has never "provided audio feedback to take the wheel" (except when I tried it on purpose).

Any car, people should keep hands on wheel. They do not. They balance the wheel with their leg, put on makeup, eat a burger, play on their phone. That doesn't make the cosmetics company at fault.

Noticed the "gore point" on a highway exchange here was absolutely demolished. Clearly it wasn't a Tesla because it didn't make the news. The homeless person crossing the intersection that was killed by a car didn't mention the brand, and the car that caught on fire at the gas station last week that only avoided the station catching on fire because "the firemen were at the station for a meeting and could respond much quicker" didn't have a brand mentioned either.

 

[bro1999]

The piece of software says "keep hands on wheel". I do keep hands on wheel at all times. Everyone should. I use AP 80%+ of the time. It really helps. It actually does detect my hands on the wheel. I can feel and see if it is doing anything stupid.

It has never "provided audio feedback to take the wheel" (except when I tried it on purpose).

Any car, people should keep hands on wheel. They do not. They balance the wheel with their leg, put on makeup, eat a burger, play on their phone. That doesn't make the cosmetics company at fault.

Noticed the "gore point" on a highway exchange here was absolutely demolished. Clearly it wasn't a Tesla because it didn't make the news. The homeless person crossing the intersection that was killed by a car didn't mention the brand, and the car that caught on fire at the gas station last week that only avoided the station catching on fire because "the firemen were at the station for a meeting and could respond much quicker" didn't have a brand mentioned either.

Perhaps Tesla needs to go back to the drawing board and design a more idiot proof AP then. Such as something similar to GM's Supercruise that tracks eyeball movement and ensure the driver is paying attention to the road. IIRC, GM delayed rolling out Supercruise for almost a year to make sure it was as good as possible before release.

 

[mongo]

Perhaps Tesla needs to go back to the drawing board and design a more idiot proof AP then. Such as something similar to GM's Supercruise that tracks eyeball movement and ensure the driver is paying attention to the road. IIRC correctly, GM delayed rolling out Supercruise for almost a year to make sure it was as good as possible before release.

So you are saying Supercruise will never be better? Bummer for GM.
Regarding eye tracking, I was rear ending this week by a driver that was looking around, moreso at the car in the next lane, but looking.