Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)

[SMAlset]

More ABC7 reports, albeit before Tesla's latest announcement.

EXCLUSIVE: Autopilot part of Tesla crash investigation, I-Team rides in Model X to site

Two glaring items in article that stuck out. 1) Walter worked at Apple in Sunnyvale on Mathilda not the locations in Cupertino and therefore likely on 101 HOV, not a given. 2) what the article goes on to talk about is the Full Self-Driving mode video on Tesla's site which isn't even out yet and I thought they could have emphasized this more or even left it out since it could confuse people who just read nothing but the article.

I applaud Dan for tackling this but wonder if he ran this article by Shaun Price, the Tesla owner/driver, to check his info and make sure he understands how it works. One thing people don't need is incorrect info which just fuels wrong ideas about the new technology.

 

[CarbonFree]

Then they found public numbers for the number of miles driven on AP and miles not driven on AP, and concluded that you are something like 7x more likely to die in an AP Tesla as a non-AP Tesla.

One explanation is the "Air France" effect, where hundreds of people died because pilots could not recover when their autopilot disengaged; see: Automation Has Made Airline Travel Safer. But Are Pilots Too Dependent on It? Autopilot results in fewer minor problems but more disasters.

The FAA now recommends pilots spend less time flying with autopilot enabled.

 

[dmode]

very deceptively crafted sentence. if i drove on AP for 15 minutes and i was alerted to put my hands on the wheel 2 minutes in.

It would fit tesla's specially crafted statement.

It makes it look like user was warned and didn't respond by putting their hands on the wheel but its completely false. The AP drove him straight into the barrier with no warning.

Even if that were the case, it would be weird for the driver not to take over and avoid the accident. Especially considering that he knew the route well AND had expressed concerns about AP previously.

 

[mattack4000]

Rumble strips, or even a reflector field, makes sense in gore areas.

They don't use them in California....

 

[MXWing]

Point is for everyone that stated that AP will never drive you against a stationary object.
What bothers me is not why 6 seconds past by w/o reaction as obviously the driver wasn’t paying attention, what bothers me is how AP got into the gore lane and subsequently hit the diver.

I was one of the original AP2 - 1000 that got Tesla's software on the new hardware. I reported right away it does not react to stationary objects.

Even now with Karpathy's latest it is "better" but still not to where you can't pay attention.

I don't know who said AP will never drive into a stationary object but they are wrong. I would correct it every time I see it and I hope responsible owners do as well.

I suspect this only gets resolved when they release to production camera image recognition. Concrete wall, license plate, brake lights, traffic lights, etc.

 

[22522]

Another streetview picture showing someone drifting to the left towards the gore area:

View attachment 290611

It is clear that the heavy line misleads the vehicle. The other line is not properly maintained.

The standardized test for autonomous vehicles might want to include this.

I think the Model 3 has range finding tracer beams that can give the camera a set moving dots for centered objects, but that is not centered...

Seems like stationary objects could be differentiated from moving objects by observing no relative motion of the asphalt beneath them. Don't know if they have the resolution or algorithmic capability to do this yet. Maybe it doesn't work in practice.

 

[22522]

They don't use them in California....

Or Arkansas.

 

[ZeApelido]

If you extrapolate over a weeks worth of commutes, Autopilot successfully avoided driving someone into a slab of concrete 80% of the time.

 

[jsmay311]

AP/AP2 can't see the barrier, at all.

That's misleading. Cameras and radar OF COURSE can see something like a stationary concrete barrier.

But AP is programmed to ignore it to reduce false positives.

 

[wallstguy]

Even if that were the case, it would be weird for the driver not to take over and avoid the accident. Especially considering that he knew the route well AND had expressed concerns about AP previously.

We don't know that he didn't. I've actually had issues where AP took over and I had to fight to get back control (reported to SC who claimed software bug and did not act on it). Teslas statement is, the driver had 5 seconds to respond, thats not a lot of time at all if AP is fighting with you.

 

[Gen3]

Radar doesn't see stopped objects.

Vision system isn't trained on what it hit.

Of course radar can see stopped objects.

 

[MXWing]

OMG... Tesla's update is monumentally concerning... Absolutely monumentally concerning. That should NOT HAPPEN. I immediately retract any previous statements and my confidence in AP is now considerably shaken. How in the hell can that happen? That simply can't happen and if it can, then it's time for Tesla to disable AP in ALL CARS until they can guarantee it won't happen again. I repeat, this Tesla "fanboy" has seen enough. This is disturbing... I love AP, I use it all the time and life would suck without it but this is unconscionable....

Flame away if you will...

I so monumentally disappointed in Tesla and Elon Musk right now, completely and utterly disgusted.

Jeff

EDIT: To be clear because I know I'm going to get piled on for my emotional reaction to the Tesla update, I don't expect any support for my stance and I fully understand where each and every rational and reasonable counterargument would come from. I really do get it.

Jeff - you need to calm the f down.

My son gets slapped if he gets this hysterical. Breaking down solves nothing.

All you gotta do is.....

1 - Envision your overall alertness level with AP. Does it go down, does it go up? For me - it goes up and I'l tell you how. I'm more relaxed to look at the bigger picture around me. What's happening behind, whats going on to the sides and what the far distance holds.

2 - Envision where is your foot? Instead of burning energy resting on the heel, you can rest it flat. But be close enough to the brake that you can stomp on it if needed. Reaction time should be the same as if moving from accelerator to brake.

3 - Envision where is your hands? They don't need to death grip the wheel, you can be relaxed but have enough of a handle to override autosteer or brace it so it cannot move the car left or right if you don't want to allow it to do so. Passing semi trucks or driving on cliff edges as an example.

4 - Envision where are your eyes? Are you looking around to survey the overall environment, and general "mood" of other drivers on the road? See any potential scenarios you don't want to try AP on? Such as a Gore point hundreds of feet in front of you?

5 - Think about your typical routes and AP habits. Do you need to make adjustments or has it been well suited based on road conditions and your comfort with the software?

Lastly, enjoy AP as much as anyone outside of 3 people in the entire world who racked up combined millions of miles.

Man + Machine is safer together than as individuals.

 

[22522]

Road marking should also be certified.

 

[Kant.Ing]

That's misleading. Cameras and radar OF COURSE can see something like a stationary concrete barrier.

But AP is programmed to ignore it to reduce false positives.

Exactly, overlaying the current scan with the last to cancel out any stationary objects, as there is no computing power to look at every stationary reflections again and again in every frame. I guess in Tesla's mind, camera vision and NNs and any memory/prediction are the key to effectively solve this but it hasn't had any breakthrough yet

 

[Bladerskb]

News media:

"In the latest crash, Tesla said Autopilot's adaptive cruise control was in the minimum following distance setting and that the driver had received several visual and one audible hands-on warning as reminders to keep his hands on the wheel prior to crashing into the center divider. " CNBC

"Tesla Says Autopilot Was On Before Fatal Model X Crash, But That Driver Didn’t Abide Warnings" - Jalopink

" Apple engineer Wei “Walter” Huang, had his hands off the steering wheel and was not responding to warnings to re-take control." - TheVerge

"As it turns out, Tesla said the driver had Autopilot on with the adaptive cruise control follow-distance set to minimum. However, it seems the driver ignored the vehicle’s warnings to take back control." - TechCrunch

Tesla narrative already spreading. smh. Disgusting.

 

[MXWing]

Tesla narrative already spreading. smh. Disgusting.

Are you saying Tesla lied? Yes/No?

800 posts and you don't even own a Tesla with AP2 and have lame ass signatures like "Like how many times do i have to be right before people start noticing?"

Try being right at least once first.

First comes before many.

Being an owner and having experience counts.

 

[MP3Mike]

"Huang got a job at Apple only last November and went out and purchased the Model X in celebration of landing the gig."

But that doesn't tell you it was a new Model X with AP2 and not a CPO Model X with AP1...

 

[Bladerskb]

Are you saying Tesla lied? Yes/No?

800 posts and you don't even own a Tesla with AP2 and have lame ass signatures like "Like how many times do i have to be right before people start noticing?"

Try being right at least once first.

First comes before many.

Being an owner and having experience counts.

How is giving the impression that the driver was warned right before the crash and didn't put his hands on the wheel not deception and straight up lies?

Literrally here is USA Today article "Tesla said Autopilot's adaptive cruise control was in the minimum following distance setting and that the driver had received several visual and one audible hands-on warning as reminders to keep his hands on the wheel prior to crashing into the center divider. "

Here is Jalopink Title "Tesla Says Autopilot Was On Before Fatal Model X Crash, But That Driver Didn’t Abide Warnings"

Job complete, because journalism today is bottom of the barrel, journalists wouldn't even use their brain and write half hearted articles leading to tesla narrative spreading.

Think about it. if i drove on AP for 15 minutes and i was alerted to put my hands on the wheel 2 minutes in. It would fit tesla's specially crafted statement.

 

[22522]

They don't use them in California....

Are you saying California's poorly marked roads disqualify the state for autonomous vehicle use and development?

 

[MXWing]

Think about it. if i drove on AP for 15 minutes and i was alerted to put my hands on the wheel 2 minutes in. It would fit tesla's specially crafted statement.

At the speeds Huang was going, hands on the wheel would have popped up at LEAST 3 times if not more spread out roughly equally in that duration.

Being an owner using Autosteer at 80MPH on curvy roads would have told you what I said was true from practical experience.

Tesla has an algorithm that figures out how much to bug you based on its confidence. It bugs you far often at higher speeds and it tells you to flat out take over if confidence is gone.

1st Amendment allows anyone to speak but it doesn't guarantee everyone knows WTF they are talking about.