It probably did register, but in the reject band. Otherwise the car would be braking for soda cans.
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Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)
- Thread starter mookhead
- Start date
It probably did register, but in the reject band. Otherwise the car would be braking for soda cans.
First off, his hands were not detected for 6 seconds. They may or may not have been on the wheel.
The car drove forward, the barrier was in the way, the driver had >150meters and 6+ seconds to not let the car continue on its path. The same role every non AP drive has every time they are on the road. Don't hit things.
The large steel and concrete object approaching at 60 MPH should be warning enough, even if one ignores the reports from friends and family that the driver was aware of problems with AP at the is exact point
Tesla doesn't advertise, and nothing of theirs claims EAP is anything other than Driver Assistance. I'd be interested to links that show otherwise.
Can you drive hands off for a while? Sure, just like you can drive hands off on a motorcycle . Are their risks to both? Yes there are. Is there a risk every time you take your eyes off the road, yes there is. But between an AP car and a non AP car, which might do something to prevent a crash?
(and the banning section was an attempt to show the risk inducing factor people are currently fine with)
where does tesla advertise this?
check their ordering page and feature under enhance autopilot and then go to ford.com and see what they consider cruise control and tell me if the two are the same
jelloslug
Active Member
No, there was a warning 6 seconds before the crash. The driver could have had their hands off the wheel for anywhere from several more seconds to several minutes. Also, EVERY SINGLE TIME you activate AP, it tells you to keep your hands on the wheel and be prepared to take over at any time.
Not seeing it:
From: https://www.tesla.com/models/design (ordering page)
Enhanced Autopilot adds new capabilities to the Tesla Autopilot driving experience. The enhancements include going from one to four cameras for greater accuracy, redundancy, and to see fast-approaching vehicles in adjacent lanes. In addition, 12 ultrasonic sonar sensors provide 360 degree coverage around your car with almost twice the range and resolution of the prior version.
The significantly increased sensor information is processed by a computer that is over 40 times more powerful than before. Your Tesla will match speed to traffic conditions, keep within a lane, automatically change lanes without requiring driver input, transition from one freeway to another, exit the freeway when your destination is near, self-park when near a parking spot and be summoned to and from your garage. That said, Enhanced Autopilot should still be considered a driver's assistance feature with the driver responsible for remaining in control of the car at all times.
Tesla’s Enhanced Autopilot software has begun rolling out and features will continue to be introduced as validation is completed, subject to regulatory approval.
From feature page: https://www.tesla.com/models
Autopilot advanced safety and convenience features are designed to assist you with the most burdensome parts of driving. Model S comes standard with advanced hardware capable of providing Enhanced Autopilot features today, and full self-driving capabilities in the future.
Ford (for whatever that is worth) https://www.ford.com/suvs/explorer/models/explorer-sport/#ford-safe-and-smart-package
Lane-Keeping System helps detect and alert you to vehicle drift
Adaptive cruise control and forward collision warning with brake support
Footnote: Driver Assist Features are supplemental and do not replace the driver's attention, judgment and need to control the vehicle
The 6 seconds was the last hand detection.
The last warning was 15+ minutes before impact:
NTSB:
During the 18-minute 55-second segment, the vehicle provided two visual alerts and one auditory alert for the driver to place his hands on the steering wheel. These alerts were made more than 15 minutes prior to the crash.
During the 60 seconds prior to the crash, the driver’s hands were detected on the steering wheel on three separate occasions, for a total of 34 seconds; for the last 6 seconds prior to the crash, the vehicle did not detect the driver’s hands on the steering wheel.
Driver Dave
Member
"Tesla sped up before hitting road barrier"
"A navigation mistake by Autopilot..."
"the Tesla began a left steering movement."
The NTSB report and the coverage following it is really just awful investigating and awful reporting.
Because there is no mention at all of why these things happened.
Poorly maintained and missing lines caused the car to follow a line that led away from the lane.
All traffic aware cruise controls speed up to desired speed when car in front no longer is in the way.
There was no "mistake by Autopilot", there was only mistake by Driver.
I mean, NTSB, at least try to inform the public as to what is going on, and why these things are happening. There are reasons.
Ridiculous.
But regardless.... DRIVER NOT PAYING ATTENTION... should be the only headline.
"A navigation mistake by Autopilot..."
"the Tesla began a left steering movement."
The NTSB report and the coverage following it is really just awful investigating and awful reporting.
Because there is no mention at all of why these things happened.
Poorly maintained and missing lines caused the car to follow a line that led away from the lane.
All traffic aware cruise controls speed up to desired speed when car in front no longer is in the way.
There was no "mistake by Autopilot", there was only mistake by Driver.
I mean, NTSB, at least try to inform the public as to what is going on, and why these things are happening. There are reasons.
Ridiculous.
But regardless.... DRIVER NOT PAYING ATTENTION... should be the only headline.
Your Tesla will match speed to traffic conditions, keep within a lane, automatically change lanes without requiring driver input, transition from one freeway to another, exit the freeway when your destination is near, self-park when near a parking spot and be summoned to and from your garage.
did it do that ? do you not read without driver input surely if it can change lanes without driver input it should be able to stay in the lane
Your statement about line following is not supported by the data, AP followed a vehicle into the gore, not a line.
Not sure what your issue is with the NTSB, I felt they did state the reasons (other than not explaining the intricacies of AP), Media is getting it wrong though...
- At 8 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla was following a lead vehicle and was traveling about 65 mph.
- At 7 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla began a left steering movement while following a lead vehicle.
- At 4 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla was no longer following a lead vehicle.
- At 3 seconds prior to the crash and up to the time of impact with the crash attenuator, the Tesla’s speed increased from 62 to 70.8 mph, with no precrash braking or evasive steering movement detected.
Driver Dave
Member
I came to this conclusion by watching the videos of people trying driving in that area
And then looking at the lines via satellite photos.
It is totally obvious, and proven, that the line following switched to the wrong line because the correct one was all but gone.
And I'm amazed the NTSB didn't have a look at that aspect of it.
All wrapped in the disclaimer That said, Enhanced Autopilot should still be considered a driver's assistance feature with the driver responsible for remaining in control of the car at all times.
And it did stay in the lane, where lane is defined as a region bounded by solid lines. Unfortunately those lines were actually the gore point which it entered by following the human in front of it through the section where the right line was missing. Had the right line still been painted, the car would have likely stayed in the right lane.
Currently AP2/2.5 cars only have Autopilot functions such as TACC, Autosteer, Summon and Auto Lane Change. The text you quoted above refers to Enhanced Autopilot functions which haven't been released yet. Enhanced Autopilot functions include On-ramp to Off-ramp, Autosteer+ and Smart Summon.
The current Auto Lane Change functionality requires driver input. The "Auto" in Auto Lane Change refers to the fact that the driver doesn't do the steering. The driver initiates Auto Lane Change by using the turn signals after manually confirming it is safe to change lanes.
Driver Dave
Member
“The NTSB had objected to Telsa making statements concerning the cause of the crash before the investigation is complete”
Kind of crazy that now the NTSB is releasing a “report” with plenty of missing information before the investigation is complete.
Kind of crazy that now the NTSB is releasing a “report” with plenty of missing information before the investigation is complete.
Assuming facts not in evidence.
For all we know he was following a Model X on AP, and the human in that X corrected it at the last minute. So it could have been AP following AP.AP (and other such systems) kind of need to be able to deal with the roads in the conditions they happen to be in. There isn't likely to be a massive increase in road quality within the next few years. And even if there were, roads get damaged/worn frequently, and never will necessarily be fixed immediately.
Assuming facts not in evidence.
Ya know, I thought about that before I posted, but figured no one has FSD yet, so it's probably a person in charge...
Plus if it was a Tesla, I'm guessing that would have made the news...
Point taken.
Barklikeadog
Active Member
When the FSD switch gets flipped any day now... where your car will chauffeur you around hands free... will you sit in the backseat?
Will you say that the driver is at fault, or the car? Maybe when the first FSD car runs into a bridge you will blame the road. Never ever the car.
tinm
2020 Model S LR+ Owner
Autopilot is going to continue to be a problem because Tesla isn't working on improving the key component of Autopilot: the driver. And drivers are exhibiting repeated cases of being distracted and surrendering agency to Autopilot in ways that go against what Autopilot is capable of doing. People are the weakest link in the system, and a couple of disclaimer boxes on a screen that you "accept" and "ok" to dismiss is not cutting it.
The right way to fix this, beyond ongoing software improvements, is to train the drivers and only when they're certified does Autopilot activate. You don't sell a supercar to a plain old consumer who gets no special training or certification on driver-assist technology and expect bad things to never happen. They're happening and they will keep happening and we have not seen the worst accidents yet, I suspect. It's such a shame.
Tesla is acting so Silicon Valley. So Jony Ive. Product design should be so beautiful, no manual or training is needed. To require training for use is to admit design failure, and that makes poor Jony types frown. But a car is not a website or an app. I suspect we're going to have to experience a horrific multi-fatality multi-vehicle wreck brought on by an inattentive Tesla driver relying on Autopilot for Tesla to wake up and realize this isn't Jony-type design anymore. We need aviation-style design and training and certification.
The right way to fix this, beyond ongoing software improvements, is to train the drivers and only when they're certified does Autopilot activate. You don't sell a supercar to a plain old consumer who gets no special training or certification on driver-assist technology and expect bad things to never happen. They're happening and they will keep happening and we have not seen the worst accidents yet, I suspect. It's such a shame.
Tesla is acting so Silicon Valley. So Jony Ive. Product design should be so beautiful, no manual or training is needed. To require training for use is to admit design failure, and that makes poor Jony types frown. But a car is not a website or an app. I suspect we're going to have to experience a horrific multi-fatality multi-vehicle wreck brought on by an inattentive Tesla driver relying on Autopilot for Tesla to wake up and realize this isn't Jony-type design anymore. We need aviation-style design and training and certification.
Kant.Ing
Member
Thought it's possible to retrieve some video or time lapses before the impact, to show how close was it to the car in front. And that "150 meters of unobstructed view" should exactly mean these 6 seconds for the car traveling at 65mph--what was the driver doing?
NTSB's usage of "lead car" should not mean a blue car in the CID. The car very likely followed the bad lane markings--but what was the driver doing if he knew such behavior?
NTSB's usage of "lead car" should not mean a blue car in the CID. The car very likely followed the bad lane markings--but what was the driver doing if he knew such behavior?
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