Model X Side Mirrors

[Saxena]

We've seen how the dual motor S gets more range than the single motor S so the dual motor X may get similar range as the single motor S for the same reasons of efficiency.

Great point. And we also agree about no camera based delay.

 

[Gwgan]

The standard has reached publication stage as of Dec 15
ISO 16505 - Road vehicles -- Ergonomic and performance aspects of Camera Monitor Systems -- Requirements and test procedures

Stage 60.00 = “International Standard under publication"

I suppose not having a NHTSB director will result in delays in US approval.

 

[fengshui]

For those of you who are interested, this is the closest thing I could find to a summary of the document:
https://www2.unece.org/wiki/downloa...-04 - Status_ISO16505_February2014.pdf?api=v2
and and older summaries:
http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2012/wp29grsg/GRSG-103-19e.pdf
http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2012/wp29grsg/GRSG-102-31e.pdf

 

[yobigd20]

on a related note - Cadillac is adding 'streaming rear view mirrors': Cadillac Set to Debut World’s First Streaming Video Rearview Mirror | TheDetroitBureau.com

worth noting that Cadillac's is "two-mode system, including both a conventional mirror and the LCD display, is to meet federal regulations"

 

[Mayhemm]

on a related note - Cadillac is adding 'streaming rear view mirrors': Cadillac Set to Debut World’s First Streaming Video Rearview Mirror | TheDetroitBureau.com

worth noting that Cadillac's is "two-mode system, including both a conventional mirror and the LCD display, is to meet federal regulations"

Tesla may need to go with a similar "hybrid" system too, until the regulations catch up. Any efficiency benefits will have to be delayed until then.

Once they do, maybe a service center could just remove the mirrors.

 

[ratsbew]

I just noticed that on the Model X page Tesla has gone back to showing cameras on the renders!!! So it started with cameras, went to mirrors, and is now back to cameras!

A very good sign!

 

[timf]

I just noticed that on the Model X page Tesla has gone back to showing cameras on the renders!!! So it started with cameras, went to mirrors, and is now back to cameras!

A very good sign!

This seems to come up every month or two. The Model X page has always shown cameras. It never went back and forth with mirrors.

 

[Nixter]

Tesla Motors may be legally obligated to equip all of their cars with conventional rear view mirrors. However the laws in my state, (And most, if not all the others too.), do not specify a minimum size, only that they must allow vision for two hundred feet. That means that Tesla could equip their cars with the video system, plus a tiny mirror that could be as small as one inch in size (?), this would satisfy the legal requirements for having a physical mirror while allowing the video system to be used until the rules can be changed. Towing a trailer can require that additional mirrors be used for safety reasons, but again, no physical size minimum is specified in my state.

You can check the mirror laws in your state here.
http://ecomodder.com/wiki/index.php/Mirror_Laws_by_State_(U.S.)#Illinois

Illinois;
Mirrors: All motor vehicles must have a rear view mirror that provides a view of the highway for at least 200 feet to the rear. If a load or trailer obscures the driver’s normal view through the rear window, the vehicle must have two additional rear view mirrors, one on each side of the vehicle.

Custom motorcycles have been doing this for years, look some of them, very small mirrors are used mainly to satisfy the law, not to see much behind you.

 

[BerTX]

I have had this thought, too. I've read on other sites (ecomodder, etc) of people putting dental mirrors on to satisfy the law. I suspect that, since the laws are state laws, there is too much open for interpretation in being able to see 200' and Tesla can't take the chance that some states will not allow it.

I don't really understand, anyway, why people here are always thinking that if the NHTSA changes and allows cameras, then it is "problem solved". These are all state laws, and the law would need to be changed in each and every state. Years.

 

[favo]

I don't really understand, anyway, why people here are always thinking that if the NTSB changes and allows cameras, then it is "problem solved". These are all state laws, and the law would need to be changed in each and every state. Years.

They address that in the petition submitted to NHTSA:

However, should NHTSA amend FMVSS No. 111 to permit optional compliance by means of camera-based systems in lieu of mirrors, NHTSA should simultaneously make clear that the availability of the compliance option would preempt any state laws mandating mirrors. Under §30103(b) of the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act, whenever an FMVSS is in effect, a state may “prescribe or continue in effect a standard applicable to the same aspect of performance of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle equipment only if the standard is identical to the standard prescribed under this Chapter.”

 

[Earlian]

The goal is definitely to go with the cameras.

And for a long time, I felt uncomfortable with the thought of displaying the camera-view into the speedo-lcd.

I always hoped that there would simply be a small LCD in each corner next to the driver and passenger.

And perhaps Tesla is heading for this already, but in an improved way:
They could place a LCD where the driver would normally expect the mirrors view, just a bit closer: build-in LCD in the front corner of the side-windows?

Or for what reason do they tape this triangle-section so heavily?

 

[fengshui]

Tesla Motors may be legally obligated to equip all of their cars with conventional rear view mirrors. However the laws in my state, (And most, if not all the others too.), do not specify a minimum size, only that they must allow vision for two hundred feet. That means that Tesla could equip their cars with the video system, plus a tiny mirror that could be as small as one inch in size (?), this would satisfy the legal requirements for having a physical mirror while allowing the video system to be used until the rules can be changed. Towing a trailer can require that additional mirrors be used for safety reasons, but again, no physical size minimum is specified in my state.

While regulations are laws, regulators don't like major companies trying to game the rules like that. Individual custom builds may get away with it, but a company like Tesla won't succeed with something like that.

 

[Nixter]

While regulations are laws, regulators don't like major companies trying to game the rules like that. Individual custom builds may get away with it, but a company like Tesla won't succeed with something like that.

If TESLA could show that the side view video system is safer than conventional side mirrors, that might not be interpreted as trying to evade or game the rules, utilizing the existing wording of the rules to enhance safety, it would be hard to fault them for that. I won't be surprised if the X comes with a hybrid rear view system that has both both camera and mirror. If the Model X mirror assembly hardware can be modified with an aftermarket kit, that might be a way to get the benefits of a smaller profile mirror while also keeping Tesla Motors out of the fray.

 

[AnOutsider]

If TESLA could show that the side view video system is safer than conventional side mirrors

that's a big if. i've had to reboot my screens countless times during ownership. i wouldn't call the underlying code rock solid at this point.

 

[Nixter]

I didn't think about the possibility of hardware faiulure, if the side view video signal were interrupted the effect would be the same thing as if the regular mirror were to suddenly fall off, not a good thing!
Now you have me wondering if this might be an issue with the final video only design,..if a true video side mirror is ever realized.
Perhaps a compromise between the two, for instance a slightly reduced size glass mirror with an integrated video camera.
In the end, it's a matter of engineering and cost, there are ultra redundant "Glass Cockpit" type displays purpose built to aviation standards available, but the cost is prohibitive.
It will be interesting to see what the first Model X's will be equipped with, and what will side mirrors evolve into with Tesla vehicles and others too.

I did a search for video side mirrors and found this site.
high-resolution-night-vision-camera-car-side-mirrors

Google image search turned up these pictures of video side mirrors Replacing the mirror with a video screen looks like a bad idea.

 

[ecarfan]

that's a big if. i've had to reboot my screens countless times during ownership. i wouldn't call the underlying code rock solid at this point.

If a video camera is integrated into a conventional side view mirror housing (that can also fold flat at speed but the camera still works) the camera image can be fed directly to display on the side of the rear view mirror. It would have nothing to do with the cars computer or the center dashboard display and therefore would still work even when the center or driver display screens are being rebooted.

This rear view mirror housing could be wider and slightly taller than normal to accommodate display areas for the side view cameras and still have space for the conventional glass rear view mirror, but without obstructing the drivers vision forward since the X is so tall anyway.

An advantage of showing the side view cameras in the rear view mirror housing is that the camera images will not be washed out by glare. They will always be in the shade of the roof.

 

[kiefer]

I would think that the reason for the taping of the side mirrors is just because the driver got irritated with all the wind that come in from that lille window, like we have in our Model S ;-)

 

[ratsbew]

What if the inside rear-view mirror is an ultra wide angle LCD that incorporates left, rear, and right cameras to give you 270 degree view from the driver's door to the passenger's door?

 

[ecarfan]

Yes that could certainly be done technically but would not be allowed by NHTSA because of the requirement that all cars must have an interior rear view mirror: an actual reflective mirror.

A limitation of cameras for rear and side view imaging is that in inclement weather their image quality can be inadequate. Right now the Model S rear view camera is often useless in the rain, the image becomes so blurry that it is unusable Then you need to rely on the rear view mirror. Of course that is also effected because of rain on the rear window, but it's still usable.

Side view cameras will need to be designed so that rain or snow does not blur their image. I'm sure this can be done, but it adds cost.

 

[JRP3]

I think just a longer lens "hood" would work, and not add any significant cost. Throw in a heating element for any snow and ice that might get sucked into the hood.