Model X vs Audi E-tron in Europe

[wdolson]

Vortexz, you'll have to forgive some of us Tesla folks for nitpicking. Established car companies like Audi have been slamming the idea of EV's and Tesla in particular for years. Actually we'll all be delighted to see Audis and Jaguars on the road. I just hope they really plan to make them and to sell them, and it's not another limited production thing like the Chevy Bolt is turning out to be.

Audi and Jaguar are facing the same problem all legacy automakers are facing. They can't afford to make a truly compelling EV yet because they don't have the batteries to mass produce one. So they have to make something compromised in small numbers to show the world they are doing something while still selling ICE.

If they came out with something that really compelling, it would compete with their ICE sales and could collapse them. They would have huge demand for a low profit vehicle they can't make in large quantities and no demand for the rest of their line up.

I think most European car companies accept electric is the future at this point, but just how to surf that transition is going to be difficult. Their dealers are dependent on income from servicing ICE that will go away, the companies are built around ICE and they have vast investment in ICE technology. If demand for EVs gets too far ahead of supply, they could end up running rivers of red ink with large inventories of cars nobody wants.

 

[Pandamoanium]

If we go to size then it seems like the e-Tron is slatted to for the segment the Model Y will fit, even the 3.

If that’s their market competition then price alone already hurts Audi. I think everyone knows no one will best Tesla yet, it’s just a shot at taking some of the market share to help financials.

 

[wdolson]

If we go to size then it seems like the e-Tron is slatted to for the segment the Model Y will fit, even the 3.

If that’s their market competition then price alone already hurts Audi. I think everyone knows no one will best Tesla yet, it’s just a shot at taking some of the market share to help financials.

From what I've seen the wheelbase and width of the E-Tron are in the same size range as the Model X. It's slightly smaller than the X, but bigger than the 3. Here is a comparison I did in another thread:

The Model 3 has a wheelbase of 113.2 in, width of 72.8 in, and overall length of 184.8 in. The Y could be longer and it will almost certainly be taller, but the wheelbase and track width are pretty much locked in by the platform. I do think the Y will beat both the E-Tron and iPace in range. Tesla is much better at efficiency.

 

[Rprp]

There is one e-Tron exposed last week in Zurich so had the chance to have a look at it. I am coming from an Audi A6 and have now a S75D.
This is really typical Audi interior, so if you like it, you will not be disappointed. I would have to point the difference but it really look like almost identical to the Audi A6 or A7 interior (the new generation).
There is good and bad to this Audi typical interior. Obviously, if you like old fashion interior, this look as amazing as every Audi but it is quite a confusing interior compared to a Tesla. Many buttons are replaced by on-screen buttons but it remains full of (tactile) button everywhere and is really not that user friendly.
For instance, the Tesla GPS is super clear with just one search field. And if you click on the screen, you see the options of showing the traffic / Google Earth and Supercharger but on the Audi, this is plenty of buttons on the small 10" screen, including some redundant one like zoom (why do you need on-screen button if the screen is tactile?).
And every operations still take 2 or 3 times more steps than on a Tesla. Nothing new under the sun here anyway.

2 points though: here in Switzerland, the setup presented, full options was 120kCHF which is roughly 110k$ if you remove the 8% VAT.
Even if you remove things like the big wheel and opening roof, it means 115kCHF. In comparison, a S75D similarly equipped is 92k§CHF so the Audi is 25% more expensive. This is MASSIVE.

Also, this is in NO WAY comparable to a X. Interior is really similar to a Q5 and cargo space is surpringly small. I doubt you have more than 500-550l available (a tiny stuff on the front maybe to put a charging cable?).
Also, the rear middle seat is hard (arm rest), has suprinsigly a bump (although there is no need for a transmission tunnel) and no space to put the feet below the air vent.
My conclusion is that it is really more a 4 seats car and seems really derived from an ICE platform.

Without speaking of the lack of fast charging infrastructure (coming, i know but still 2-3 years from comparing with Tesla), which should put the Audi in good situation with 150kW charging, the autonomy on the highway seems to be under 320km at 130km/h.

It means that it really compare to a S75D for long trip, based on the range and charging speed (charging faster but having >25% higher consumption as well).

Bottom line: the conclusion is that you can pick up a S75D with existing fast charging network, years of experience from others, and continuous OTA, or you can get a smaller 4 seater Audi for 25% more with the only difference being that it looks like your ICE Audi, and that will obviously depreciate much much more (because of no OTA update and limited range).

I think that you need to put a pretty huge preference and biais toward legacy Audi interior to swallow the huge offering ratio difference.

I've also seen the e-Tron already, but I guess it all comes down to personal preference. I liked the interior and the screens.
As example, I almost never use the big screen in my Tesla. The navigation is (still) *sugar* and so is the media player. So, why do I need a 17" screen? I am almost always listening to the same radio station so it doesnt really matter if the screen is 2" or 10" or 20".

The same goes for the navigation system. It is still trying to navigate over roads that are closed (road blocks/works), so I cant trust it. I am using Waze on my phone and the e-Tron has CarPlay, so I can just use waze on this screen, works pretty great.
So why do I need the big 17" screen?
It's also not about the clean "interior" or like Tesla people say "whoah buttons". Tesla people dont get this, but it's also about the options. The e-Tron is silent inside, double glass, e-Tron has massage seats, e-Tron has 360 topview, e-Tron has way better sound (I heard it!), e-Tron has way better seats, e-Tron has CarPlay + Waze, etc, etc.

I dont get why the e-Tron is so expensive in Switzerland: in the Netherlands the e-Tron starts at €84.100 and will be ~€98.000 fully equipped (https://www.audi.nl/nl/web/nl/model...l/modellen/layer/brochure-form.html?mc=e-tron). A S 70D starts at ~€90.000 and will be €99.000 with autopilot upgrade. So the e-Tron is less expensive than the S 70D and (way) cheaper than the Model X.

And like I said, it all comes down to personal preference. I expect top notch service, when something is broken I want it to be replaced asap, maybe even next day. I waited over 7 months for a new battery heater for my Tesla while I couldnt charge in sub-zero temperatures. I am now waiting over 6 months for some other parts. Thats what not I expect when buying a €130.000 car.

Same goes for the range. Yes, the range is not great -expected atleast 450km wltp-, but the charging speed is and according to eCalc - evCalc - independent Range and Efficiency Calculator for Electric Vehicles/Cars (EV's) with Benchmarking, the e-Tron will be a faster road-trip vehicle. IONITY EU is gaining speed the last weeks and I expect them to have atleast 100-150 stations by next year: for me, thats enough, my long distance trips are only for skiing (the Netherlands => Austria) and thats already possible with IONITY + FastNed (Fastned): so again; personal.

So meh: I know this is a Tesla forum and I really enjoyed my P85 and now 90D (both over 175.000km!), but both cars have their positives and negatives. I dont care that the car is derived from an ICE platform. I dont care about the efficiency (as do most Tesla S/X owners, otherwise they should have bought an Leaf/IONIQ). I care about the charging speed and how long it takes to get to the destination. And I bet the e-Tron will be faster because of their 150kW charging speed (0-80% with no tapering!).
I also dont really care about Tesla: I am not linked to a brand. I just want the best possible EV for my uses (with the best price). I want the world to have more EVs and I dont care if thats a Tesla, Audi or more Leafs.

The only thing that is holding me back is the autopilot platform. Tesla did a great job and Audi is providing zero information so I bet Audi doesnt have anything comparable.

 

[Rprp]

The e-Tron looks inferior to a model X on every metric. I’m all for other EV’s, not being a hater, but this thread was a comparison. Take out the subjective parts (interior/exterior styling) because well, they are subjective, and the e-Tron is clearly inferior. However, the model X is no longer the new kid on the block and some people just need to have something new and exciting. Have fun charging at 50kw, not to mention all the hassle of these charging systems compared to Tesla park, plug, walk away.

The e-Tron has 150kW 0-80% and no tapering, so Tesla is cleary inferior - huh? Also CCS can "auto-charge" and is just plug and go: Autocharge

And oh: FastNed and IONITY and Mega-E are deploying 175kW chargers all over Europe. So I guess no hassle?

 

[john85775]

I'm also very interested in the e-tron. So much so that I'm a confirmed Edition One reservation holder (only 999 in the USA):

But I have a 100D MX in flight with Tesla.

Here's why:
1) Immaturity. This is Audi's first full production EV. They WILL be making mistakes (as evidenced by the recently announced 30 day delay). So expect immaturity in the vehicle, dealer and service experiences for at least a couple of years. Tesla still suffers from this immaturity, but less so in the product and they have proven the ability to learn quickly.

a) As a side note - there are echoes of Tesla's order experience with the reservation above. The local dealer, who is supposed to serve as an OA of sorts, was completely clueless about my order - plenty of disconnects and confusion about the process and particulars.​

2) Range. 95 kWh and <240 miles of range. That's abysmal and faster charging is cold comfort. Even that estimate is in question as they've been very coy about the range. My use case has me driving ~120 miles each direction 2-3 times per month, and I'd bet I'm not alone. Hell that's an LA to San Diego or Santa Barbara to OC run.

3) Space. No third row.

4) Performance. Not a huge issue for us, but a USD$90k SUV should be able to hold its own in the class. At 5.5 seconds to 60 mph, this vehicle will simply not have the oomph that the MX has.

So what am I gonna do with the reservation?

Not sure yet. I do agree that Audi's cabin will likely be more comfortable and the driving dynamics compelling - and I like the look of the car.

I'll wait to assess the build quality of the MX we've ordered. If it's inexcusably bad (as many Q3 deliveries are reporting), we'll likely pull out of the MX and roll the dice with Audi.

 

[Sean Wagner]

I'll wait to assess the build quality of the MX we've ordered. If it's inexcusably bad (as many Q3 deliveries are reporting)

...

This really still is a problem with the established premium vehicle lines? Hello-ho Tesla?

 

[john85775]

...

This really still is a problem with the established premium vehicle lines? Hello-ho Tesla?

This reminds me quite a bit of RED cameras in the early days.

Unique product in its space, buggy as hell, all kinds of early product issues, extremely loyal and FORGIVING customers who would NEVER give latitude to their competitors. But the desire for the product viability was so strong, they looked past stuff that would be fatal with competitors.

 

[wdolson]

The e-Tron has 150kW 0-80% and no tapering, so Tesla is cleary inferior - huh? Also CCS can "auto-charge" and is just plug and go: Autocharge

And oh: FastNed and IONITY and Mega-E are deploying 175kW chargers all over Europe. So I guess no hassle?

The reason Tesla supercharging tapers is battery management. The overall life of the battery is longer if the charge rate tapers as the battery approaches full. Otherwise the battery wears out quickly. If Audi and CCS are not tapering fast charging, we're going to see much shorter battery pack lives and much sharper tapers for fast charged CCS batteries than Tesla.

As for the Audi having bugs. All new cars have some problems. Consumer Reports talked about this on their video podcast about cars a couple of years ago. They made the point that whenever a new model of any car comes out, quality drops the first year or two. The bigger the change, the more problems the car has. Ford went from one of the most reliable brands to the bottom half in one year because they brought out a number of new cars in one year and it dragged down the average for the entire brand.

The main reason Toyota stays at the top of the ranking year after year is they are one of the most conservative automakers about change. They try to change their cars as little as possible year to year and tend to go longer between major changes to production car lines.

The first e-Tron out there will have problems. Probably less than the Model X had, but they will be there. VW may be quicker than Tesla at fixing all the problems and the e-Tron may become a highly reliable car faster than any Tesla car did. In Tesla's existence they have introduced 4 cars, one out of production (the Roadster). VW has put into production at least that many new designs in the last couple of years. They have a lot of experience making cars, even if their experience with EVs is limited.

 

[Peteski]

The reason Tesla supercharging tapers is battery management. The overall life of the battery is longer if the charge rate tapers as the battery approaches full. Otherwise the battery wears out quickly. If Audi and CCS are not tapering fast charging, we're going to see much shorter battery pack lives and much sharper tapers for fast charged CCS batteries than Tesla.

As for the Audi having bugs. All new cars have some problems. Consumer Reports talked about this on their video podcast about cars a couple of years ago. They made the point that whenever a new model of any car comes out, quality drops the first year or two. The bigger the change, the more problems the car has. Ford went from one of the most reliable brands to the bottom half in one year because they brought out a number of new cars in one year and it dragged down the average for the entire brand.

The main reason Toyota stays at the top of the ranking year after year is they are one of the most conservative automakers about change. They try to change their cars as little as possible year to year and tend to go longer between major changes to production car lines.

The first e-Tron out there will have problems. Probably less than the Model X had, but they will be there. VW may be quicker than Tesla at fixing all the problems and the e-Tron may become a highly reliable car faster than any Tesla car did. In Tesla's existence they have introduced 4 cars, one out of production (the Roadster). VW has put into production at least that many new designs in the last couple of years. They have a lot of experience making cars, even if their experience with EVs is limited.

Not to mention the learning curve Audi franchised dealers are going to experience. Any teething troubles with the E-tron are going to be a major headache for the technicians who will have never worked on EVs before. I would give it at least a year to see how they get on. I see the Jaguar iPace honeymoon is almost over due to the delays and general confusion and misinformation at dealerships. I expect it will be a similar story at Audi.

 

[john85775]

Not to mention the learning curve Audi franchised dealers are going to experience. Any teething troubles with the E-tron are going to be a major headache for the technicians who will have never worked on EVs before. I would give it at least a year to see how they get on. I see the Jaguar iPace honeymoon is almost over due to the delays and general confusion and misinformation at dealerships. I expect it will be a similar story at Audi.

Yes. This gets particularly bad if you're outside a metro area too.

Having owned PHEV and EV vehicles from ICE manufacturers, the playbook is typically to train one or two people on the car. That person ends up being the pinch point when you take the car in for service and everyone else is clueless. It's a mess.

 

[tommie]

"

I agree that the Audi should be a serious contender for anyone considering a Model X, but I would still personally take the Tesla.

To compare prices meaningfully, you will need to actually configure the Audi since all VAG products I've ever configured needed at least £10-15k added in options just to cover the basics. I can't see the e-tron being any different."

Boy is that true. My last 2 cars have been Audis: A4 and Q5. When I went on-line to price the Q5, it seemed very reasonable. I figured I could get a decently equipped for $37k. Upon arrival at the dealership, I discovered that every single one available was at least $45k. I asked if there was one available in California for what the internet quoted, and the salesman laughed at me. Every single Q5 was at least 20% more than one would expect. Every expensive option was on every single available car.

 

[SuisseDriver]

I've also seen the e-Tron already, but I guess it all comes down to personal preference. I liked the interior and the screens.
As example, I almost never use the big screen in my Tesla. The navigation is (still) *sugar* and so is the media player. So, why do I need a 17" screen? I am almost always listening to the same radio station so it doesnt really matter if the screen is 2" or 10" or 20".

The same goes for the navigation system. It is still trying to navigate over roads that are closed (road blocks/works), so I cant trust it. I am using Waze on my phone and the e-Tron has CarPlay, so I can just use waze on this screen, works pretty great.
So why do I need the big 17" screen?
It's also not about the clean "interior" or like Tesla people say "whoah buttons". Tesla people dont get this, but it's also about the options. The e-Tron is silent inside, double glass, e-Tron has massage seats, e-Tron has 360 topview, e-Tron has way better sound (I heard it!), e-Tron has way better seats, e-Tron has CarPlay + Waze, etc, etc.

I dont get why the e-Tron is so expensive in Switzerland: in the Netherlands the e-Tron starts at €84.100 and will be ~€98.000 fully equipped (Audi e-tron > e-tron > Home > Audi Nederland). A S 70D starts at ~€90.000 and will be €99.000 with autopilot upgrade. So the e-Tron is less expensive than the S 70D and (way) cheaper than the Model X.

And like I said, it all comes down to personal preference. I expect top notch service, when something is broken I want it to be replaced asap, maybe even next day. I waited over 7 months for a new battery heater for my Tesla while I couldnt charge in sub-zero temperatures. I am now waiting over 6 months for some other parts. Thats what not I expect when buying a €130.000 car.

Same goes for the range. Yes, the range is not great -expected atleast 450km wltp-, but the charging speed is and according to eCalc - evCalc - independent Range and Efficiency Calculator for Electric Vehicles/Cars (EV's) with Benchmarking, the e-Tron will be a faster road-trip vehicle. IONITY EU is gaining speed the last weeks and I expect them to have atleast 100-150 stations by next year: for me, thats enough, my long distance trips are only for skiing (the Netherlands => Austria) and thats already possible with IONITY + FastNed (Fastned): so again; personal.

So meh: I know this is a Tesla forum and I really enjoyed my P85 and now 90D (both over 175.000km!), but both cars have their positives and negatives. I dont care that the car is derived from an ICE platform. I dont care about the efficiency (as do most Tesla S/X owners, otherwise they should have bought an Leaf/IONIQ). I care about the charging speed and how long it takes to get to the destination. And I bet the e-Tron will be faster because of their 150kW charging speed (0-80% with no tapering!).
I also dont really care about Tesla: I am not linked to a brand. I just want the best possible EV for my uses (with the best price). I want the world to have more EVs and I dont care if thats a Tesla, Audi or more Leafs.

The only thing that is holding me back is the autopilot platform. Tesla did a great job and Audi is providing zero information so I bet Audi doesnt have anything comparable.

Sure. I also think that the e-Tron is by far the most interesting EV coming from premium brand: the size is not as small as the i-Pace / EQC / Model III, the interior is definitely Audi (I like the design with the orange lining on the seats or lighted seat belts buckles, nice touch), and the combination of the biggest battery (95kWh) with fast charging at 150kW and 3 phases charging at 22kW is the best again from the other premium options that will come on the market on the next 2 years.

So all in all, much more pleasantly surprised compared to the EQC or i-Pace.

98k€ is roughly 117kCHF so it seems in line.
However, I am surprised of the price you are giving for Tesla. A fully optioned S75D (metal paint, vegan "leather" seats, AP, premium pack included now in the price) is 88 800 CHF.
So that is nearly 30 000 CHF difference. So the e-Tron, which is definitely a smaller car and only a real 4 seaters better be nice inside because that is a crazy huge premium to pay.

And if i had exceptional Tesla leasing (I have got mine at 0,25% leasing), it means that you end up paying twice as much monthly for Audi (An Audi 17 configure around 100k€ is costing 1150 CHF / month compared to the 680 CHF I pay for my S75D).

I think Audi did right: as everyone, they do not intend to sell too much but they have a very compelling car where they will for sure not loose money due to the huge premium you have to pay to get it.

Nota: I point however that I would raise like you did: AP. For me, this is really a KILLER feature. Really. I am making long trip (800km+) and this is just something I could not live without. I think that until others are catching up, I would have to stay with Tesla, only for that.

 

[SuisseDriver]

From what I've seen the wheelbase and width of the E-Tron are in the same size range as the Model X. It's slightly smaller than the X, but bigger than the 3. Here is a comparison I did in another thread:
View attachment 346451

The Model 3 has a wheelbase of 113.2 in, width of 72.8 in, and overall length of 184.8 in. The Y could be longer and it will almost certainly be taller, but the wheelbase and track width are pretty much locked in by the platform. I do think the Y will beat both the E-Tron and iPace in range. Tesla is much better at efficiency.

I want inside. It is definitely MUCH smaller than a X. Much.
This is quite smaller than my S, small trunk and only really 2 people can sit behind. Definitely closer to a 3 than a S in term of interior space.

 

[wdolson]

I want inside. It is definitely MUCH smaller than a X. Much.
This is quite smaller than my S, small trunk and only really 2 people can sit behind. Definitely closer to a 3 than a S in term of interior space.

Audi may have made poorer use of their space than Tesla did. One of the design changes for the Model X over the S was moving the front of the cabin forward making more room in the passenger compartment. The X has a shorter nose than the S as a result. Tesla laid out their equipment to maximize the interior. I did see a video from the Paris Auto Show and when they looked at the E-Tron it looked like it had a smuggler's hold (storage under the floor in the back) like all Teslas do, but it looked much deeper than any Tesla. To me this is a sign Audi didn't lay out the car as well as they could have.

The E-Tron shares a lot of it's platform with ICE vehicles, and that may be part of the problem. The platform is designed for an ICE and that probably caused more design compromises Tesla didn't have to make.

 

[Peteski]

The E-Tron shares a lot of it's platform with ICE vehicles, and that may be part of the problem. The platform is designed for an ICE and that probably caused more design compromises Tesla didn't have to make.

Exactly, I believe it's just a derivative of the existing ICE platform used on the Q7 etc. Even appears to have a transmission tunnel and enough space up front for a V8, lol. Their dedicated EV platform is not due until 2022, so probably 2023 by the time you can buy an actual car built on it. The more I read about the E-tron, the less exciting/interesting it becomes and the more I appreciate the effort that went into the Model X.

No doubt the E-tron will still appeal to traditional Audi fans as they effectively get their familiar Q5/Q7 box layout and quality interior with an EV drivetrain and they won't know what they are potentially missing out on with a more efficient EV layout. The more conservative buyers don't like change anyway, even if it's better!