Blog Musk Says FSD Beta is ‘Not Great’

Tesla Chief Executive Elon Musk said its latest beta version of its Full Self Driving software is “not great.”

Musk was replying to a video praising the new self-driving software. Musk said Tesla employees have urgency to improve the system.

“FSD Beta 9.2 is actually not great imo, but Autopilot/AI team is rallying to improve as fast as possible,” he tweeted. “We’re trying to have a single stack for both highway & city streets, but it requires massive NN retraining.”

https://twitter.com/x/status/1429903213726093315

Tesla sells FSD for $10,000 or a $199 per month subscription. The beta version of the FSD software has only been rolled out to small number of owners and employees to test the software.

Musk’s admission on Monday follows an announcement last week that the National Transportation Safety Board has launched a formal investigation into Tesla’s Autopilot system, saying Tesla vehicles using Autopilot have caused 11 crashes with first responder vehicles in the U.S.

Tesla also hosted its AI Day last week where it touted a chip designed specifically for training artificial intelligence to identify a variety of obstacles. But, it seems there remains work to be done for Tesla to meet its full-self-driving promise.

 

[jebinc]

Elmo himself stated that the robotaxi service, Tesla Network, would be L5, on several occasions

Exactly.

 

[hooty]

You appear to be confusing "thing you were actually promised in the product description of the thing you bought- in writing" and "some forward looking aspirational stuff the CEO said out loud once in a while"

Legally those are vastly different things.

Screen shot of what buyers were actually promised when they bought it from launch to ~March 2019 below:

View attachment 948019

As I say earlier you could possibly argue that's L5, but you can even more easily argue the "almost all circumstances" disclaimer would let them satisfy that with an L4 system as long as the ODD wasn't onerously narrow.

And buyers SINCE April 2019 have never been promised any more than L2- as shown below (the wording of the city streets bit has changed a bit over time, but the L2 aspects have not)

View attachment 948020

A CEO who makes definitive statements is, effectively, the company making the statements
Statements are statements whether verbal or written.
Not sure how this works legally, but to extrapolate, Tesla stated that their cars would be L5 robotaxis
Not sure what case law precedent there is.

By the way, back in circa 2012/13, Tesla made a submission to the SEC (?) that Musk's personal twitter account be used for official company dissemination of information.

 

[Knightshade]

A CEO who makes definitive statements is, effectively, the company making the statements

Can you give me an example of one of these definitive statements Elon made to you, constituting a meeting of the minds on the terms of your purchase, during your purchase of FSD wherein he is promising you L5? Or did you instead only get the promise from the tesla.com website I've already posted screen shots of that, post 3/19 only ever promised you L2, and pre 3/19 was more vague by the promise most nearly fit L4?

Statements are statements whether verbal or written.

There's actually some significant differences between them-- also between a statement made from a company to a customer during a sale, and a general remark made off-hand outside the context of an actual sale of something.

Not sure how this works legally

And that's the problem with how firmly you're wording the above.

, but to extrapolate, Tesla stated that their cars would be L5 robotaxis

They actually didn't though.

Not sure what case law precedent there is.

Then maybe check into that before being so sure you were "promised" L5?

 

[jebinc]

A CEO who makes definitive statements is, effectively, the company making the statements
Statements are statements whether verbal or written.
Not sure how this works legally, but to extrapolate, Tesla stated that their cars would be L5 robotaxis
Not sure what case law precedent there is.

By the way, back in circa 2012/13, Tesla made a submission to the SEC (?) that Musk's personal twitter account be used for official company dissemination of information.

Yep, some never let the facts ruin a good story.

 

[spacecoin]

When I bought FSD in sept 2019 is said in my local language that Tesla will deliver City Streets to my car, and that only the autonomous operation is subject to regulatory approval. It will be expensive for Tesla if the EU or my country doesn't approve city streets L2 in the coming years.

"future use of these functions without supervision are subject to"...

 

[Knightshade]

When I bought FSD in sept 2019 is said in my local language that Tesla will deliver City Streets to my car, and that only the autonomous operation is subject to regulatory approval. It will be expensive for Tesla if the EU or my country doesn't approve city streets L2 in the coming years.

"future use of these functions without supervision are subject to"...

Do you have a screen shot saying City Streets will be autonomous?

Because the US version never said that- it only said current features are NOT autonomous.

 

[spacecoin]

Do you have a screen shot saying City Streets will be autonomous?

Because the US version never said that- it only said current features are NOT autonomous.

Yes I have a screen shot. What I am saying is that Tesla sold, but cannot legally deliver supervised L2 City Streets right now in the EU. Possibly this will change, but it's not a given on "city streets". Right now NoA isn't even legal, but on the other hand L3 on highway is, up to 130km/h... There is some ongoing work in the UNECE to fix the NoA bit, but it doesn't seem obvious that L2 among VRU:s is going to be approved.

The fine print said nothing about regulatory approval for the supervised L2 bits, only about future autonomy.

 

[Knightshade]

Yes I have a screen shot. What I am saying is that Tesla sold, but cannot legally deliver supervised L2 City Streets right now in the EU. Possibly this will change, but it's not a given on "city streets". Right now NoA isn't even legal, but on the other hand L3 on highway is, up to 130km/h... There is some ongoing work in the UNECE to fix the NoA bit, but it doesn't seem obvious that L2 among VRU:s is going to be approved.

The fine print said nothing about regulatory approval for the supervised L2 bits, only about future autonomy.

Ah, thanks for the clarity- I thought you were saying the non-english version promised autonomy, my apologies for my misunderstanding.

Anyway, NoA is legal in the EU, it's just somewhat nerfed compared to the US version, and thus has some reduced (or arriving later than US) features- for example:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1534210389138972672

and

https://twitter.com/x/status/1534210385712189441

Also it's known Tesla is actively testing FSDb in numerous EU countries, and working with regulators to get something released.

The good news there is since their description of what city streets "is" is so vague, even an EU-regs-nerfed version probably qualifies legally.

The bad news is you'll almost certainly end up with an EU-regs-nerfed version.

 

[spacecoin]

Anyway, NoA is legal in the EU, it's just somewhat nerfed compared to the US version, and thus has some reduced (or arriving later than US) features.

Yes, I should have said car-initiated lane changes (including onramps and exits), which is the main point of using NoA. Otherwise it's useless in my opinion.

Also it's known Tesla is actively testing FSDb in numerous EU countries, and working with regulators to get something released.
The good news there is since their description of what city streets "is" is so vague, even an EU-regs-nerfed version probably qualifies legally.

The bad news is you'll almost certainly end up with an EU-regs-nerfed version.

We'll see if the Tesla chair in this committee can shoe horn this document through anytime soon. It's been going on for two years:

ADAS - 21st session - Transport - Vehicle Regulations - UNECE Wiki

wiki.unece.org

Legalese aside it's a shitty business practice to sell L2 as L5.

 

[Knightshade]

Legalese aside it's a shitty business practice to sell L2 as L5.

Agreed.

But as pointed out, Tesla never promised L5 to anybody in the product description- in any country.

They promised L4 to buyers prior to ~March 2019-- and they'll have legal concerns with those buyers eventually when they admit they can't do it on the cars they sold them-- but they're a small minority of customers and only paid 3-5k for FSD anyway.

Everyone since then was only promised L2 (and that change was almost certainly driven by a desire to reduce their legal liability if they found they couldn't ever deliver more)

 

[spacecoin]

But as pointed out, Tesla never promised L5 to anybody in the product description- in any country.

Sure. On the tesla.com checkout page, I agree. However, in my definition of "selling" I would include marketing activities (such as Elon at the Springer Awards in dec 2020 and on on numerous other occasions.

They promised L4 to buyers prior to ~March 2019-- and they'll have legal concerns with those buyers eventually when they admit they can't do it on the cars they sold them-- but they're a small minority of customers and only paid 3-5k for FSD anyway.

Yes.

Everyone since then was only promised L2 (and that change was almost certainly driven by a desire to reduce their legal liability if they found they couldn't ever deliver more)

Yes, but some may feel cheated on and may never buy a Tesla again.

 

[Knightshade]

Sure. On the tesla.com checkout page, I agree. However, in my definition of "selling" I would include marketing activities (such as Elon at the Springer Awards in dec 2020 and on on numerous other occasions.

Legally, a CEO saying "We hope to do X in the future" isn't selling anything but a hope.
Quote from the event you mention

I am extremely confident of achieving full autonomy and releasing it to the Tesla customer base next year

That's clearly a forward looking statement, something they hope to achieve in the future- not something they have, or are selling, today.

Which might get buyers to look, but isn't legally binding in contract terms.

Yes, but some may feel cheated on and may never buy a Tesla again.

Absolutely. The 3/19 change is a CYA thing in case they can't deliver. In 2019 they sure hoped they still could be finally seemed to realize internally that was less as slam dunk than initially thought.

How Tesla eventually handles the eventual admission they can't do it on HW2-3 cars (and they aren't upgrading them further) will be very very interesting.

There's a fair # of options available to them that would probably satisfy a lot of folks in that situation, and several that would....not.

 

[spacecoin]

Which might get buyers to look, but isn't legally binding in contract terms.

Agreed, never claimed there is a legal issue. Just a moral issue and possible pissed off customers. I would likely never buy anything from Tesla again based on the constant overpromising and underdelivering (high beams, wipers, FSD, no HW3 upgrade, no autonomy to name a few) plus Elon's general behavior now and and in the past. Others may feel differently. That's ok.

 

[Knightshade]

Agreed, never claimed there is a legal issue. Just a moral issue and possible pissed off customers. I would never buy anything from Tesla again based on the constant overpromising and underdelivering (high beams, wipers, FSD to name a few) plus Elons general behavior now and and in the past. Some people may feel differently. That's ok.

Eh, Bezos is a horrible human but I still order from Amazon.

If I had to buy another car today it'd still be a Tesla because everyone elses EVs are objectively worse (esp. for the price) and it's as simple as that.

Doesn't mean I disagree the insanely optimistic promises and timelines don't suck-- but go drive a Bolt and tell me it's a reasonable alternative- it ain't.

As I say I think there's ways they can deal with it without pissing off a large % of customers- all will require some degree of financial hit though.

I don't think, until they DO have a working >L2 system, they're likely to pick one... because until then they don't really have any solution to offer other than just refunds on demand for FSD. But once they DO have one working- let's say for argument they get HW4 working with such a system- it opens up better options for them like offering a free one-time transfer to a new car, and some "early adopter" discount on that new car.


On the other hand-- it might be the case that Tesla feels "If we get to L4 years ahead of anyone else, even if we DO upset the 500,000-ish people who actually own FSD, who cares, since there'll be 5,000,000 new customers lined up around the block to buy a car they can sleep in while it drives them places"

 

[DaveG_NJ]

Well, he's right - it's not great. I bought FSD just before the price increase from $8K to $10K (October 2020) when Elon was promising beta release to all by EOY 2020 and production release to follow shortly thereafter. Early progress was encouraging, but it was operating at maybe a 1 sigma level then. Maybe it's 2 sigma now and the pace of improvements has slowed dramatically.

I'm swapping my M3 for a MY later this week and will be taking a pass on FSD this time. Knowing how far off it is, and with the subscription there if I want to try it out, it's not worth whatever rate they're charging these days ($15K?!).

 

[spacecoin]

Eh, Bezos is a horrible human but I still order from Amazon.

That’s perhaps because Bezos didn’t sell you a 15k product that didn’t work as advertised…

If I had to buy another car today it'd still be a Tesla because everyone elses EVs are objectively worse (esp. for the price) and it's as simple as that.

Doesn't mean I disagree the insanely optimistic promises and timelines don't suck-- but go drive a Bolt and tell me it's a reasonable alternative- it ain't.

In Europe there are plenty of viable alternatives now. Hyundai, Kia, Audi, BMW, Porsche, MB, Polestar, Volvo. Even XPeng, Nio, Zeekr and a few others.

Given Tesla’s quality, sound insulation and general non-luxuary and crappy service - people are looking elsewhere for their second EV these days.

As I say I think there's ways they can deal with it without pissing off a large % of customers- all will require some degree of financial hit though.

I don't think, until they DO have a working >L2 system, they're likely to pick one... because until then they don't really have any solution to offer other than just refunds on demand for FSD. But once they DO have one working- let's say for argument they get HW4 working with such a system- it opens up better options for them like offering a free one-time transfer to a new car, and some "early adopter" discount on that new car.

I seriously doubt they will ever let people transfer FSD. Autonomy only makes sense as a TaaS per mile or month.

On the other hand-- it might be the case that Tesla feels "If we get to L4 years ahead of anyone else, even if we DO upset the 500,000-ish people who actually own FSD, who cares, since there'll be 5,000,000 new customers lined up around the block to buy a car they can sleep in while it drives them places"

There will not be a Tesla or other privately owned car that you can sleep in in the coming ten years.

 

[Knightshade]

That’s perhaps because Bezos didn’t sell you a 15k product that didn’t work as advertised…

Neither did Tesla. Everything they said would work when I bought it works fine.

They have promised me something for the future (but they stopped promising that to new buyers over 4 years ago)- and I do expect them to address that eventually. Once we know what that address is we can judge appropriate reaction to it.

In Europe there are plenty of viable alternatives now. Hyundai, Kia, Audi, BMW, Porsche, MB, Polestar, Volvo. Even XPeng, Nio, Zeekr and a few others.

That is more true in Europe than in the US, though from a few you've mentioned based on US pricing and specs of them they're not really as viable as you suggest... maybe they're cheaper and better speced in Europe.

I seriously doubt they will ever let people transfer FSD. Autonomy only makes sense as a TaaS per mile or month.

That would open them to vastly larger and broader lawsuits.

"We sold this future thing in development for years, now that it actually works we're not letting anybody own it" would not do well in court.

There will not be a Tesla or other privately owned car that you can sleep in in the coming ten years.

Opinions vary pretty deeply on this.

Given there's company owned ones today I suspect your timeline for privately owned ones might be pessimistic, but it wouldn't be shocking if it wasn't.

 

[spacecoin]

Neither did Tesla. Everything they said would work when I bought it works fine.

They have promised me something for the future (but they stopped promising that to new buyers over 4 years ago)- and I do expect them to address that eventually. Once we know what that address is we can judge appropriate reaction to it.

So did they promise autonomy now? They’ll just offer refunds for buyers pre 2019 if there are any left that hasn’t sold.

That would open them to vastly larger and broader lawsuits.

"We sold this future thing in development for years, now that it actually works we're not letting anybody own it" would not do well in court.

I thought you argued they didn’t sell autonomy?

 

[hooty]

As a quick reminder

 

[hooty]

Can you give me an example of one of these definitive statements Elon made to you, constituting a meeting of the minds on the terms of your purchase, during your purchase of FSD wherein he is promising you L5? Or did you instead only get the promise from the tesla.com website I've already posted screen shots of that, post 3/19 only ever promised you L2, and pre 3/19 was more vague by the promise most nearly fit L4?

First & foremost the promotion of the 'Tesla Network' was on the website circa 2016/17. There was no indication that it was going to be geofenced. On balance that implies L5 more than L4.

There's actually some significant differences between them-- also between a statement made from a company to a customer during a sale, and a general remark made off-hand outside the context of an actual sale of something.

Making repeated statements at conferences/presentations are not what I define as 'off-hand'

Tesla (TSLA): Elon Musk says 'very close' to level 5 autonomy complete

Musk turns on Tesla’s latest Full Self-Driving beta, says it’s “actually not great”

It’s unclear if CEO still thinks company can achieve Level 5 by year’s end.

arstechnica.com

Tesla privately admits Elon Musk has been exaggerating about ‘full self-driving’

Musk’s comments do not match the “engineering reality.”

www.theverge.com

And that's the problem with how firmly you're wording the above.

Its a forum to express an opinion, which was even qualified by reference to legal action
But to extrapolate your implication, you're firmly wording also

They actually didn't though.

Elmo is Tesla

Then maybe check into that before being so sure you were "promised" L5?

And you're not a judge deciding on proceedings before them
Its often why people struggle to grasp the statement "politicians don't make law, judges do"