brucet999
Active Member
One wonders, where will the water for all of that hydrolysis come from in dry (and likely in future drier) Utah?
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Natural gas, a bridge to nowhere?
- Thread starter mspohr
- Start date
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
I think it's more like the noise of the noise.... you're essentially turning a gallon of water into a gallon of 'gasoline'. It would be an exaggeration to call the amount of water needed a rounding error.
33 kWh / kg H2
18 kg H2O to make kg H2
545 kg (141 gal) H2O to make 1 MWh electricity
I wouldn't worry about it.
If it is a closed system, much of the H2O would also be recycled. And unlike CH4, any H2 losses to the atmosphere don’t have that GHG problem.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
Well... technically H2O is a more powerful GHG than CH4... but also 'technically'... 'rain'
Was referring to H20 recovery for water scarcity separately from H2 (molecular hydrogen) for potential GHG impact. Can’t vouch for the credibility of this article, but apparently that too has some indirect potential GHG effect:Well... technically H2O is a more powerful GHG than CH4... but also 'technically'... 'rain'
If a global hydrogen economy replaced the current fossil fuel-based energy system and exhibited a leakage rate of 1% then it would produce a climate impact of 0.6% of the current fossil fuel based system. If the leakage rate were 10%, then the climate impact would be 6% of the current system.
https://www.geos.ed.ac.uk/~dstevens/Presentations/Papers/derwent_ijhr06.pdf
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek
H2 doesn't last very long in the atmosphere before it finds some O2 and becomes water. According to the article the atmospheric lifetime of H2 is ~2.5 years. So any effect wouldn't be cumulative like it is with CH4 or CO2.
Coal Killing Long-Duration Energy Storage For Vermont (Vermont?!?)
So, here’s where it gets interesting. If the 2010s were the decade when coal died (spoiler alert: it was), the the 2020s will be the decade when natural gas loses its grip on the US power generation sector.
So, here’s where it gets interesting. If the 2010s were the decade when coal died (spoiler alert: it was), the the 2020s will be the decade when natural gas loses its grip on the US power generation sector.
The U.S. Natural Gas Boom Is On Its Last Legs | OilPrice.com
Weak natural gas prices amid abundant supply and a falling rig count across the United States will slow down U.S. natural gas production growth this year, and some basins will even see production declines, analysts say.
Gas flaring has hit record highs as producers are unable to find any useful and reasonably cost-efficient application for that gas.
Weak natural gas prices amid abundant supply and a falling rig count across the United States will slow down U.S. natural gas production growth this year, and some basins will even see production declines, analysts say.
Gas flaring has hit record highs as producers are unable to find any useful and reasonably cost-efficient application for that gas.
All net new electricity generation in the US will be wind and solar power in 2020
The EIA projects that 9.3 GW of new fossil-based power will be countered by 9.5 GW of retiring fossil-fuel plants, while 32 GW of utility-scale wind and solar will be built — plus 5.1 GWac of distributed solar power.
The EIA projects that 9.3 GW of new fossil-based power will be countered by 9.5 GW of retiring fossil-fuel plants, while 32 GW of utility-scale wind and solar will be built — plus 5.1 GWac of distributed solar power.
Natural gas (and the hydrogen economy) is a bridge to nowhere
...an increased push on climate and clean energy goals means more states, cities and utilities are aiming for carbon-free power mixes in the next few decades, and some industry observers worry utilities are over-purchasing on natural gas — and will soon be left with the same stranded asset burdens that now plague the coal industry.
That's the true future of the hydrogen economy: to provide an excuse for keeping all those pipes and pumps and infrastructure working. To justify the continuing to pipe gas to homes and businesses.
Notwithstanding the dreams of my admiring tweeter, the hydrogen economy (and the hydrogen train) is all just talk, a way to continue doing business as usual. It's why we have to keep working to reduce demand and electrify everything.
...an increased push on climate and clean energy goals means more states, cities and utilities are aiming for carbon-free power mixes in the next few decades, and some industry observers worry utilities are over-purchasing on natural gas — and will soon be left with the same stranded asset burdens that now plague the coal industry.
That's the true future of the hydrogen economy: to provide an excuse for keeping all those pipes and pumps and infrastructure working. To justify the continuing to pipe gas to homes and businesses.
Notwithstanding the dreams of my admiring tweeter, the hydrogen economy (and the hydrogen train) is all just talk, a way to continue doing business as usual. It's why we have to keep working to reduce demand and electrify everything.
Where Does the Natural Gas ‘Bridge’ End?
But while a transition to natural gas is already underway, it’s unclear what the future of that fossil fuel will look like as policies shift and other, cleaner resources become more competitive.
Adnan Amin, former director-general of International Renewable Energy Agency (IRENA) and current senior fellow at the Harvard Kennedy School's Belfer Center, argued that the role of natural gas is being overstated in most forecasts.
“We have been talking about, for the last few years, gas as the bridge,” Amin said during Abu Dhabi Sustainability Week. “There is an inevitability about bridges, which is that sooner or later you get to the end of the bridge."
But while a transition to natural gas is already underway, it’s unclear what the future of that fossil fuel will look like as policies shift and other, cleaner resources become more competitive.
Adnan Amin, former director-general of International Renewable Energy Agency (IRENA) and current senior fellow at the Harvard Kennedy School's Belfer Center, argued that the role of natural gas is being overstated in most forecasts.
“We have been talking about, for the last few years, gas as the bridge,” Amin said during Abu Dhabi Sustainability Week. “There is an inevitability about bridges, which is that sooner or later you get to the end of the bridge."
TheTalkingMule
Distributed Energy Enthusiast
The subsidies in PA keep rolling in. Anything to keep gas extraction viable.
We recently announced a huge solar array that's gonna be tied to a larger battery storage scheme in Philly. Yay! The $2M grant technically goes to........the private equity company ramping an LNG plant in South Philly. Doh!
Zero extraction tax, nearly zero environmental regulation, and while we're at it...lets pay all your electric costs for the energy-intensive LNG process.
We recently announced a huge solar array that's gonna be tied to a larger battery storage scheme in Philly. Yay! The $2M grant technically goes to........the private equity company ramping an LNG plant in South Philly. Doh!
Zero extraction tax, nearly zero environmental regulation, and while we're at it...lets pay all your electric costs for the energy-intensive LNG process.
UK sued for approving Europe’s biggest gas power station
UK sued for approving Europe’s biggest gas power station
UK government is being sued for approving a large new gas-fired power plant, overruling the climate change objections of its own planning authority.
The plant, being developed by Drax in north Yorkshire, would become the biggest gas power station in Europe and could produce 75% of the UK’s power sector emissions when fully operational, according to the environmental lawyers ClientEarth, who have brought the judicial review
UK sued for approving Europe’s biggest gas power station
UK government is being sued for approving a large new gas-fired power plant, overruling the climate change objections of its own planning authority.
The plant, being developed by Drax in north Yorkshire, would become the biggest gas power station in Europe and could produce 75% of the UK’s power sector emissions when fully operational, according to the environmental lawyers ClientEarth, who have brought the judicial review
Stop Pretending Natural Gas Is a 'Transition Fuel'
The whole natural gas as a “transition” or “bridge” fuel is a frequent trope invoked by centrists and the gas industry, and it has to stop. Yes, natural gas has lower carbon emissions than coal. But transitions, by definition, end. And the time to end this one is far past its sell-by date.
But it was Klobuchar and Bloomberg who stood out as wildly out of touch with the realities of climate change. The biggest tell was them calling natural gas a “transition fuel.” Klobuchar invoked the phrase after being pressed on why she wouldn’t ban fracking, and Bloomberg brought it up in relation to China, saying “we’re not going to get rid of fracking for a while... But it’s a transition fuel, I think the senator said it right.”
if that weren’t enough, just hours before the debate, a paper was published in Nature showing that human activities are emitting 25 to 40 percent more methane than previously thought. Digging up, transporting, and burning natural gas is one of the biggest sources of methane emissions. Oh, and methane is a greenhouse gas 80 times more potent heating-wise than carbon dioxide.
The whole natural gas as a “transition” or “bridge” fuel is a frequent trope invoked by centrists and the gas industry, and it has to stop. Yes, natural gas has lower carbon emissions than coal. But transitions, by definition, end. And the time to end this one is far past its sell-by date.
But it was Klobuchar and Bloomberg who stood out as wildly out of touch with the realities of climate change. The biggest tell was them calling natural gas a “transition fuel.” Klobuchar invoked the phrase after being pressed on why she wouldn’t ban fracking, and Bloomberg brought it up in relation to China, saying “we’re not going to get rid of fracking for a while... But it’s a transition fuel, I think the senator said it right.”
if that weren’t enough, just hours before the debate, a paper was published in Nature showing that human activities are emitting 25 to 40 percent more methane than previously thought. Digging up, transporting, and burning natural gas is one of the biggest sources of methane emissions. Oh, and methane is a greenhouse gas 80 times more potent heating-wise than carbon dioxide.
TheTalkingMule
Distributed Energy Enthusiast
I don't know. Seems to me that gas turbines would work nicely as a bridge fuel over the next 20 years if we actually extracted the methane responsibly. Let them charge our batteries on-demand and at open market prices, with renewables having full grid priority of course.
Feels to me like people don't like this term out of worry renewables won't be able to end the transition. We all know well and good that solar/wind+storage is unbeatable on economic and reliability terms. Plus that economic gap widens every day. So what's the worry?
Feels to me like people don't like this term out of worry renewables won't be able to end the transition. We all know well and good that solar/wind+storage is unbeatable on economic and reliability terms. Plus that economic gap widens every day. So what's the worry?
We could extract methane responsibly but we don't because it's more expensive. We could use bio-methane but we don't because it's more expensive. The market doesn't work.I don't know. Seems to me that gas turbines would work nicely as a bridge fuel over the next 20 years if we actually extracted the methane responsibly. Let them charge our batteries on-demand and at open market prices, with renewables having full grid priority of course.
Feels to me like people don't like this term out of worry renewables won't be able to end the transition. We all know well and good that solar/wind+storage is unbeatable on economic and reliability terms. Plus that economic gap widens every day. So what's the worry?
TheTalkingMule
Distributed Energy Enthusiast
Agreed entirely. But then it's our fault, not the gas or the turbine.
Nothing stopping us from harshly regulating fracking in the US and having the oil & gas companies pay for it via extraction taxes.
The provincial government continues to want to push through a LNG project in Quebec. They claim. It will reduce emissions, but I suspect they don't even believe their own propaganda.
The private promoters are climate change deniers.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/mont...rgo-environmental-review-next-month-1.5473111
The private promoters are climate change deniers.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/mont...rgo-environmental-review-next-month-1.5473111
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