Near rear end collision captured on cams

[whatthe2]

We can agree to disagree, though I actually don't think we disagree much. In the end, it is the white truck's fault - you have to be driving at a speed where you can stop safely and be alert.

That being said, there have been many times in my daily driving that I have had to modify my driving and behavior to accommodate other people's extremely bad driving to avoid an accident. It is my duty as a driver to avoid accidents, even if an accident that would otherwise occur wasn't going to be my fault! Similarly, I also try to drive in a way such that no one else has to change their driving to avoid hitting me.

The CHP also has that duty, but more so, especially given the fact that they have the right of way when their emergency lights are on.

It's very clearly an extremely dangerous activity to be stopped by the side of the freeway, and also to re-enter it. There are procedures and guidelines to follow to minimize risk. My guess is that the CHP did not completely follow their standard procedure & training in this case. It's possible their training isn't granular enough to recommend HOW to signal to enter the freeway, but my guess is that it does. But who knows...

We aren't far off, so I'll add just a bit more. There isn't guidance for WHEN to signal, other people are expected to realize that a signal means intent to turn, not that I'm going to RIGHT NOW. Would you slam on your brakes if you were passing a slower vehicle on the highway? Do you not proceed driving straight when a vehicle is making a left with their signal on? Yes, this is an emergency vehicle, and people do crazy things when they see emergency lights. And maybe a signal. Still the fault of the other guy, not the Cop.

 

[whatthe2]

I have found it's really hard to make this determination from these dashcam videos due to the warped perspective. I looked at some landmarks quickly and it looks like he was following at less than a 2-second following distance (it looks like closer to 1 to 1.5 seconds), and that is far too close. Should be 2-second minimum (if you have performance tires!), and ideally longer at freeway speeds, and it was definitely not that.

On this exit, it is easy to exit and come around that corner at 70mph. The hill coming down to it is quite steep and there is always a lot going on. Sometimes traffic can be backed up at that exit. I always am on high alert in that area.

With the original file it would be easier to measure it, but seems hard on Youtube to go frame by frame.

Couldn't agree with you more, which is why I don't care whether or not a turn signal was on. We have an emergency vehicle on the shoulder and two people were able to stop in time, one wasn't. Appreciate the discussion.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

There isn't guidance for WHEN to signal, other people are expected to realize that a signal means intent to turn, not that I'm going to RIGHT NOW. Would you slam on your brakes if you were passing a slower vehicle on the highway? Do you not proceed driving straight when a vehicle is making a left with their signal on?

On the freeway, I usually don't signal until there is no one in my blind spot/beside me/coming up fast, etc.. (One of my pet peeves about NoAP actually.) Obviously it is different in stop and go traffic.
Passing a slower vehicle on the freeway (presumably you meant one that is signalling)....Generally I would slam on my brakes if someone started signalling and it was my judgement that they actually were going to go/could not see me. I would have no choice, even though I have the right of way. It's often a tough call. (Depends on the traffic behind me - if I feel like they would hit me, I have to figure out another option.)
For someone who is making a left with the signal on and I am the oncoming traffic with right of way...I generally look at their wheels. If their wheels are turned into my lane, I tend to slow down. If I start to see their wheels turn, I get really nervous and really start to slow down. (These actions, again, are to some extent modified by the following distance of the vehicle behind me.) If their wheels are straight, I just go by without slowing - they can't hit me.

Yes, this is an emergency vehicle, and people do crazy things when they see emergency lights. And maybe a signal. Still the fault of the other guy, not the Cop.

Yes, people will do crazy things because they are required to yield to the signal + lights - if the white car hits the cop it's probably going to be his fault even though that would be ridiculous (where's the fire?). Agreed that in the end the fault rests in this case with the only person who damaged their vehicle. I'm just saying that every attempt should be made to avoid causing an accident, regardless of fault. It's my duty as a driver, and the CHP's as well.

 

[whatthe2]

On the freeway, I usually don't signal until there is no one in my blind spot/beside me/coming up fast, etc.. (One of my pet peeves about NoAP actually.) Obviously it is different in stop and go traffic.
Passing a slower vehicle on the freeway (presumably you meant one that is signalling)....Generally I would slam on my brakes if someone started signalling and it was my judgement that they actually were going to go/could not see me. I would have no choice, even though I have the right of way. It's often a tough call. (Depends on the traffic behind me - if I feel like they would hit me, I have to figure out another option.)
For someone who is making a left with the signal on and I am the oncoming traffic with right of way...I generally look at their wheels. If their wheels are turned into my lane, I tend to slow down. If I start to see their wheels turn, I get really nervous and really start to slow down. (These actions, again, are to some extent modified by the following distance of the vehicle behind me.) If their wheels are straight, I just go by without slowing.



Yes, people will do crazy things because they are required to yield to the signal + lights - if the white car hits the cop it's probably going to be his fault even though that would be ridiculous (where's the fire?). Agreed that in the end the fault rests in this case with the only person who damaged their vehicle. I'm just saying that every attempt should be made to avoid causing an accident, regardless of fault. It's my duty as a driver, and the CHP's as well.

Yep, we are almost there. We will agree to disagree on a blinker. No harm no foul. At least for either of us.

 

[mswlogo]

I have found it's really hard to make this determination from these dashcam videos due to the warped perspective. I looked at some landmarks quickly and it looks like he was following at less than a 2-second following distance (it looks like closer to 1 to 1.5 seconds), and that is far too close. Should be 2-second minimum (if you have performance tires!), and ideally longer at freeway speeds, and it was definitely not that.

On this exit, it is easy to exit and come around that corner at 70mph. The hill coming down to it is quite steep and there is always a lot going on. Sometimes traffic can be backed up at that exit. I always am on high alert in that area.

With the original file it would be easier to measure it, but seems hard on Youtube to go frame by frame.

I never take any exit at 70 mph and as was mentioned it looked like folks are going way to fast in the first place.

I agree it’s hard to tell exactly how far back SUV was, but seemed to be a fair bit of time after a fairly hard stop before he swerved.

I think the only car that didn’t do anything wrong was the white one ahead that someone suggested he get ticketed. Hard to tell if Cop was just dipping his nose in or was gonna pull in. Either way the white stopped because he had little choice. OP shouldn’t have had to slam breaks if going a more appropriate speed. SUV was probably going a similar fast speed.

The corner is bad because it was blind. All the more reason to slow down.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I never take any exit at 70 mph and as was mentioned it looked like folks are going way to fast in the first place.

Haha. I didn't say it was a good idea to take that exit at 70mph, but I guarantee it is done routinely. The posted recommended speed is 25mph (that sign is now missing). As far as folks going way too fast in the first place - I guess you aren't familiar with California freeways? 80mph (do not exceed it though) is the default speed when the speed limit is 65mph (that's the limit here I think...though there is some construction around the corner).

If you go 70mph, it is ok, but you often won't be keeping up with traffic, so the slow lane with the trucks and buses is the place for people going that speed.

Anyway, everyone is going down that hill at 75mph (often it is 80mph). The OP is probably going closer to 65-70. The white car that cuts across in front is going about 75-80mph, and starts to slow down after cutting in. It is awfully fast given the conditions. And obviously you have to slow way down shortly thereafter due to the "crossover exit/entrance." But you need to keep up sufficient speed to match the speed of people entering the freeway to make the crossover easy, and people are often quite aggressive; they are in a rush to get home with their mall purchases!

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

So, big deal, he turned on a blinker and didn't proceed, and likely didn't intend to until it was clear.

Yep, we are almost there. We will agree to disagree on a blinker. No harm no foul. At least for either of us.

Fair enough. Just one more thing - on the first quote - not only did he turn on his blinker, he still had his overhead lights on - so that can only be interpreted reasonably as intent to go immediately. The correct thing to do would have been to extinguish all of the overhead lights, and then put the car in drive and signal left (preferably with correct timing with respect to traffic coming around the corner).

 

[whatthe2]

Fair enough. Just one more thing - on the first quote - not only did he turn on his blinker, he still had his overhead lights on - so that can only be interpreted reasonably as intent to go immediately. The correct thing to do would have been to extinguish all of the overhead lights, and then put the car in drive and signal left (preferably with correct timing with respect to traffic coming around the corner).

Sorry, disagree, no intent to go immediately. Emergency vehicles are trained to keep their lights on, regardless of signal, until they enter the roadway again and are relieved of their emergency duty. It's wayyyy safer to keep your emergency lights on while on the side of the road, rather than extinguish them. I know this from experience. I see your point, but you are getting too hung up on the signal, IMHO.

Edit: One more thing. Do you really think anyone would know the difference between a signal with lights on and lights on without a signal? Are you saying the white car would have continued on, and maybe slowed rather than stopped if there was no signal and still lights? That's just not how it works. Focus on the guy driving like a JA.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Sorry, disagree, no intent to go immediately. Emergency vehicles are trained to keep their lights on, regardless of signal, until they enter the roadway again and are relieved of their emergency duty. It's wayyyy safer to keep your emergency lights on while on the side of the road, rather than extinguish them. I know this from experience. I see your point, but you are getting too hung up on the signal, IMHO.

Edit: One more thing. Do you really think anyone would know the difference between a signal with lights on and lights on without a signal? Are you saying the white car would have continued on, and maybe slowed rather than stopped if there was no signal and still lights? That's just not how it works. Focus on the guy driving like a JA.

Ok. I guess the summary of my position is that the white truck wasn’t driving well and is responsible for the accident, and while I understand CHP has to re-enter somehow, but the details of what the CHP did showed lack of consideration (“wasn’t cool”) when re-entering the roadway; there were other options.

 

[kataleen]

How do you know he wasn’t stopped for legitimate reason? Maybe he was just completing a traffic stop and the car he pulled over just left. To think he stopped there just for fun seems quite presumptive.

I never said that he stopped for fun but officers always have the final word as to where it's safe for the vehicle in front to pull over. You probably did not witness a lot of traffic stops, which makes sense because if you're most likely a law abiding driver. I studied traffic stops and in many cases, the officer deems unsafe the way the offending car has stopped and will direct them to move to a different location. The officers have primarily their safety in mind when doing that and secondary it's the safety of the other cars in traffic and/or pedestrians. For the same reason police cruisers will simply follow a vehicle for minutes on end without lights or siren, before initiating the traffic stop. Simply because it was not safe to perform the stop at that location.

If in this case they stopped a car, they should have waited until the vehicle was on surface streets (best option) or signal the stop but at the same time instruct the driver to continue until they clear the off ramp.

 

[whatthe2]

I conducted thousands of traffic stops when I was a police officer.