New Powerwall Advanced Options [Toggles for charging from and discharging to grid from powerwalls]

[YRide]

What if you could zero your electric bill in self powered mode simply by exporting excess solar power? Wouldn't that actually result in fewer charge/discharge cycles? And with less headache, just set it and forget it. But with arbitrage you are forcing the batteries to discharge/charge every day even when you are already overproducing from solar.


For anyone else wondering about LADWP, I can confirm. I called Tesla today and in just a few minutes I had the "Energy Exports" option available in the app.

Question for @Red_DS, would you mind sharing your settings to maximize arbitrage since we're both on LADWP?

What if you could zero your electric bill in self powered mode simply by exporting excess solar power? Wouldn't that actually result in fewer charge/discharge cycles? And with less headache, just set it and forget it. But with arbitrage you are forcing the batteries to discharge/charge every day even when you are already overproducing from solar.


For anyone else wondering about LADWP, I can confirm. I called Tesla today and in just a few minutes I had the "Energy Exports" option available in the app.

Question for @Red_DS, would you mind sharing your settings to maximize arbitrage since we're both on LADWP?

When you called Tesla do you remember which team you requested?

I just received PTO, but don’t have the Export Everything toggle in my app.

 

[YRide]

As far as I know, Tesla needs to enable it for you, after which Grid Charging and Export Everything options will appear in the app.

But knowledge of this seems to vary among the support staff.

The issues of grid charging and exporting grew from an IRS limitation on the solar income tax credit, which has since been changed, but the interpretations have not been clarified beyond "consult your tax advisor". Utilities are averse to "rate arbitrage" under Time-of-Use rates - importing to charge cheaply and then exporting for peak price credit. At least in PG&E in N. Calif, for small residential systems, they limit the credited export to an estimate of maximum possible solar production, which is typically not a limiting factor. Solar systems over 10 kW may have other requirements. Non-solar storage installations are, of course allowed to charge from the grid, as are solar-tied systems which are not IRS restricted. And Virtual Power Plant (VPP) programs generously compensate discharge to the grid during extreme demand periods.

My point is that it is complicated, but Tesla does not really care, and the support folks are not all on the same page. So read your utilities tarriffs, and persist with Tesla if your utility does in fact allow you to use the various capabilities of your battery.

In northern Calif, for us, PG&E and Tesla allow both grid charging and export (up to estimated solar production). And PW has decent automatic support for these capabilities. Very cool. And VPP is an occasional bonus.

Hi @swedge i just received PTO. Actually pretty fast. Tesla said they filed paperwork on Fri 6/23 and when I was asking PG&E today if they received it from Tesla (can never count on them it seems), PG&E stated that my PTO was approved under NEM2 today 6/27.

I haven’t received the email from PG&E yet, nor any confirmation from Tesla…but the PG&E rep confirmed I can export to the grid.

Anyways, I have the PTO toggle in my app (it’s been there since day one of install). I also have the Charge from Grid toggle (also there since install) displayed.

Both have been “no” until now, but I toggled to “Yes” after call with PGE.

I’m on an EV2A rate. Also, my install was after 1/1/23 which as I understand means the ITC issue is no longer an issue for generating from ESS to grid.

Could it be that the PTO was just too recent, Tesla doesn’t even know just yet I have PTO, and once they receive that they will enable the Export Everything toggle? Or will I have to call Tesla regardless and ask them to activate EE?

 

[swedge]

Hi @swedge i just received PTO. Actually pretty fast. Tesla said they filed paperwork on Fri 6/23 and when I was asking PG&E today if they received it from Tesla (can never count on them it seems), PG&E stated that my PTO was approved under NEM2 today 6/27.

I haven’t received the email from PG&E yet, nor any confirmation from Tesla…but the PG&E rep confirmed I can export to the grid.

Anyways, I have the PTO toggle in my app (it’s been there since day one of install). I also have the Charge from Grid toggle (also there since install) displayed.

Both have been “no” until now, but I toggled to “Yes” after call with PGE.

I’m on an EV2A rate. Also, my install was after 1/1/23 which as I understand means the ITC issue is no longer an issue for generating from ESS to grid.

Could it be that the PTO was just too recent, Tesla doesn’t even know just yet I have PTO, and once they receive that they will enable the Export Everything toggle? Or will I have to call Tesla regardless and ask them to activate EE?

Yeah, it may take a few days for the digital paperwork to find its way. (The internet's speed of light at Telsa seems a bit slow sometimes.) If I recall correctly, however, PG&E will upon request email you a copy of your Permission To Operate, which is already on their system. So, with that in hand (digitally speaking), showing it (emailing it) to a Tesla Energy Support person might get your Export Everything option enabled immediately. Don't be too anxious though, as it is only worth several pennies per day. But then 365 is a significant multiplier.

I would have thought that by now Tesla would have its act together on this. PG&E's NEM2 Tariff (available online) clearly allows credits for exports from PowerWall, and also grid charging for systems with 1 or 2 Powerwalls. If the first Tesla support person you talk to does not understand this, call back and try a different one. Oh, and do write down the techs' names (calling customer support rule #1) so you know who not to try twice.

 

[YRide]

Yeah, it may take a few days for the digital paperwork to find its way. (The internet's speed of light at Telsa seems a bit slow sometimes.) If I recall correctly, however, PG&E will upon request email you a copy of your Permission To Operate, which is already on their system. So, with that in hand (digitally speaking), showing it (emailing it) to a Tesla Energy Support person might get your Export Everything option enabled immediately. Don't be too anxious though, as it is only worth several pennies per day. But then 365 is a significant multiplier.

I would have thought that by now Tesla would have its act together on this. PG&E's NEM2 Tariff (available online) clearly allows credits for exports from PowerWall, and also grid charging for systems with 1 or 2 Powerwalls. If the first Tesla support person you talk to does not understand this, call back and try a different one. Oh, and do write down the techs' names (calling customer support rule #1) so you know who not to try twice.

Thx. I was kinda (pleasantly) shocked that PGE turned PTO around in like 4 days. On the other hand Tesla took over a week from receiving my payment (right after inspection complete) to “posting” it to my account. Then almost another two weeks to “file” the final PTO requests, and that was with my badgering then daily. Anyways, here now.

Where does the 1 or 2 powerwall limit come in btw? What limits this? And is it just for Grid Charge? Or is it for EE too?

My experience has been once you get to a “tech” it’s very fast and effective. But often first line seems to be project advisors or non-tech first line…and they try to be helpful but just delay and confuse things. Let’s see how i get through the phone tree tomorrow.

 

[cwied]

Where does the 1 or 2 powerwall limit come in btw? What limits this? And is it just for Grid Charge? Or is it for EE too?

10 kW is the cut-off that PG&E uses to distinguish between "small" and "large" systems. The interconnection agreement is different depending on this classification. As far as I know, this only affects grid charging.

 

[swedge]

Where does the 1 or 2 powerwall limit come in btw? What limits this? And is it just for Grid Charge? Or is it for EE too?

Each PW can output 5kW continuously, and two can do 10kW.

In PG&E's NEM2 tariff (link) , Special Condition 9, c, 2, I defines Small storage systems as having an output capacity of 10 or less kW, and these "are not required to meet either the “No Grid Charging” or “No Storage Export” requirements..."

My understanding is that the utility's concern is arbitrage, us charging PWs from the grid during off peak and exporting for credit during peak. Now the reason they do time-of-use pricing in the first place is to shift load from peak to off peak so they do actually like this, but they prefer to profit from their own batteries. In any case, large storage systems are more of a threat, and so are required to limit storage export in software or hardware. Smaller systems are not given NEM credit during each month for more export than the attached solar is capable of producing, base on PG&E's software estimate. This is why the interconnection application includes the solar panel specs, their orientation and angle, as well as the inverter spec. With this and location, NERL's PV Watts software calculates the maximum production possible for each month.

Ask a simple question, and you may get a CPUC/PG&E labyrinth for an answer... ;-). The calculation is on the B&W "detailed" bill each month, which is in effect an encrypted map of the regulatory maze.

I am only two weeks into trying to decipher the NBC impact on my first NEM2 True-Up, so don't ask me about that quite yet.

 

[YRide]

Ok, so it was only two more days. Required another call and then someone in PW Support was able to flip the switch. Took like 6hrs and then worked immediately.

Now trying to get TBC + PTO + EE + GC to “learn” a good habit. Presently it’s not ideal yet.

 

[swedge]

Ok, so it was only two more days. Required another call and then someone in PW Support was able to flip the switch. Took like 6hrs and then worked immediately.

Now trying to get TBC + PTO + EE + GC to “learn” a good habit. Presently it’s not ideal yet.

Great! Patience + Persistence -> Sucess

Oh, and be sure to set the prices, Winter, Summer, TOU, et all in your app. I set the sell at $0.03 less than the buy price to account for NBCs. My PW seems to do what I think is the right thing, but even system is different.

You also now get to "learn" what actually makes a good habit. A year from now, your first B&W True-Up bill will probably spin your head yet again. I've had solar and PW for years, but just got my first NEM2 True-Up. After maybe 50 hours of forensic accounting and several posts on other threads, it still makes no sense. If you think Tesla is sometimes non-cooperative, you may find that PG&E are masters of obfuscation.

But hang in there! Solar + PW really is great. Complicated, but great.

 

[gadgetfreaky]

Trying to read thru this thread thank you! I finally figured out how to read my electric bill. I didn't realize there's 3 parts, NBCs, delivery, and generation.

I'm on SCE TOU-D-A, so for buy price I added delivery+generation+ $0.3 for the NBCs today. I'm assuming then leave on time based control,energy exports everythig and grid charging Yes right?

As of now I don't generate enough solar to cover my house, so it's about $100/month. NBCs are $80!

 

[swedge]

Trying to read thru this thread thank you! I finally figured out how to read my electric bill. I didn't realize there's 3 parts, NBCs, delivery, and generation.

I'm on SCE TOU-D-A, so for buy price I added delivery+generation+ $0.3 for the NBCs today. I'm assuming then leave on time based control,energy exports everythig and grid charging Yes right?

As of now I don't generate enough solar to cover my house, so it's about $100/month. NBCs are $80!

View attachment 959891

I can make neither heads nor tails of your billing. But in Nor Cal (PG&E, NEM2, EV2A) the NBC's are included in the Energy Charges (which used to be Called the NEM charges, and they are the total bundled charges, not the same as the Generation Charges which are only a component of the bundled rate charges. [I suspect Confusion is the utilities' prime directive...]). In True-Up, the adjustment is made so that we pay, in total for the year, whichever was higher, Generation Charges, NBCs, Energy Charges (NEM charges) or Monthly Minimums. Monthly Minimums, having already been paid, are deducted to come up with the NEM Adjustment. *

So, I've been setting my sell price at $0.03 below the buy price. Probably the same difference as you.

Others have suggested a larger sell discount to account for PowerWall round trip efficiency, maybe 10% loss or roughly another 3 cents per kWh.

I expect the PW logic just looks at the difference between rates to decide wether to charge, standby, or discharge at any given moment, depending of course on backup reserve setting and state of charge.

 

[Redhill_qik]

Trying to read thru this thread thank you! I finally figured out how to read my electric bill. I didn't realize there's 3 parts, NBCs, delivery, and generation.

I'm on SCE TOU-D-A, so for buy price I added delivery+generation+ $0.3 for the NBCs today. I'm assuming then leave on time based control,energy exports everythig and grid charging Yes right?

As of now I don't generate enough solar to cover my house, so it's about $100/month. NBCs are $80!

View attachment 959891

Wow, you are using a lot of electricity (imported 2774 kWh with net 1664 kWh) especially with solar. Some of this is probably due to trying to doing price arbitrage by charging your Powerwalls during off peak and then Exporting Everything during peak. I don't know what your solar and Powerwall setup is, but if you can recharge your Powerwalls with solar during the Super Off Peak time then I would disable grid charging to avoid the NBCs.

You have a CCA (Clean Power Alliance), so your are looking at the unbundled tariff rates and on the distribution side you had a credit (-$157.14) with the price arbitrage and on the CCA generation side you had a small charge ($26.62). The $81.30 for daily charge, NBCs, and a city fee gets you to $107.92 for pulling 2774 kWh from the grid or $0.0389/kWh. This doesn't included any of the kWh that solar and Powerwalls delivered to your house loads. You should be feeling pretty good that this wasn't a $1500-2000 bill.

 

[TespaceX]

Each PW can output 5kW continuously, and two can do 10kW.

In PG&E's NEM2 tariff (link) , Special Condition 9, c, 2, I defines Small storage systems as having an output capacity of 10 or less kW, and these "are not required to meet either the “No Grid Charging” or “No Storage Export” requirements..."

My understanding is that the utility's concern is arbitrage, us charging PWs from the grid during off peak and exporting for credit during peak. Now the reason they do time-of-use pricing in the first place is to shift load from peak to off peak so they do actually like this, but they prefer to profit from their own batteries. In any case, large storage systems are more of a threat, and so are required to limit storage export in software or hardware. Smaller systems are not given NEM credit during each month for more export than the attached solar is capable of producing, base on PG&E's software estimate. This is why the interconnection application includes the solar panel specs, their orientation and angle, as well as the inverter spec. With this and location, NERL's PV Watts software calculates the maximum production possible for each month.

Ask a simple question, and you may get a CPUC/PG&E labyrinth for an answer... ;-). The calculation is on the B&W "detailed" bill each month, which is in effect an encrypted map of the regulatory maze.

I am only two weeks into trying to decipher the NBC impact on my first NEM2 True-Up, so don't ask me about that quite yet.

Has anything about the “small system” limit what can be done for export to the grid since the newer PW3 can discharge at 11.5kW each now?