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New Powerwall Advanced Options [Toggles for charging from and discharging to grid from powerwalls]

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I apologize if this has been answered but this megathread is just too long to completely digest. I did get through about ten pages though!

I am in LADWP (Los Angeles) and trying to figure out if I should have the "Energy Exports" option. I tried searching the thread for LADWP and got no hits. I just read my interconnection agreement and found no references at all about exporting. So should I be able to do it from my batteries (I have both PW and PW+)?

The post above says "it should be available to anyone whose utility allows it" but I wouldn't be surprised that I don't have the option even if LADWP allows it. After getting PTO it was a struggle to get them to give me the "Permission to Export" option and I definitely should have had that. So just because I'm supposed to have a feature doesn't necessarily mean I will have it, I might have to bug Tesla to turn it on.

Somewhere within Tesla I read "If ‘Energy Exports’ is not available in the Tesla app, your utility does not allow Powerwall to export energy to the grid for any Time of Use purposes." I'm not currently on a TOU plan, so not sure if that makes any difference.

Thank you!

Do you have "Export Everything" option? Settings -> Powerwall -> Energy Exports
 
No, that's why I was asking. But @Red_DS is with LADWP and has the option so I am going to call on Monday and see if I can get it enabled. It might be easier said than done because just getting them to enable "permission to export" after I got PTO was a challenge, and that one is obvious.
I always wondered if you can set it yourself from their API (set_import_export): TeslaPy/__init__.py at master · tdorssers/TeslaPy
 
Are you guys saying that if I can't get Tesla to turn the setting on in the app, that I can still turn it on but I just won't see it turned on in the app?
As far as I know, Tesla needs to enable it for you, after which Grid Charging and Export Everything options will appear in the app.

But knowledge of this seems to vary among the support staff.

The issues of grid charging and exporting grew from an IRS limitation on the solar income tax credit, which has since been changed, but the interpretations have not been clarified beyond "consult your tax advisor". Utilities are averse to "rate arbitrage" under Time-of-Use rates - importing to charge cheaply and then exporting for peak price credit. At least in PG&E in N. Calif, for small residential systems, they limit the credited export to an estimate of maximum possible solar production, which is typically not a limiting factor. Solar systems over 10 kW may have other requirements. Non-solar storage installations are, of course allowed to charge from the grid, as are solar-tied systems which are not IRS restricted. And Virtual Power Plant (VPP) programs generously compensate discharge to the grid during extreme demand periods.

My point is that it is complicated, but Tesla does not really care, and the support folks are not all on the same page. So read your utilities tarriffs, and persist with Tesla if your utility does in fact allow you to use the various capabilities of your battery.

In northern Calif, for us, PG&E and Tesla allow both grid charging and export (up to estimated solar production). And PW has decent automatic support for these capabilities. Very cool. And VPP is an occasional bonus.
 
Utilities are averse to "rate arbitrage" under Time-of-Use rates - importing to charge cheaply and then exporting for peak price credit.
I don't really understand why utilities are adverse, but agree they are. If they set the price signal correctly there are real benefits for the networks to encourage arbitrage.

A few key advantages that I think are particularly noteworthy:

1. Grid stability improvement: Battery arbitrage helps maintain a balanced supply and demand of electricity by charging batteries during low-demand periods and discharging them during peak times. This reduces fluctuations and enhances grid reliability, minimizing the chances of blackouts.

2. Renewable energy integration: The practice facilitates better integration of intermittent renewable energy sources, like solar and wind, into the grid. By storing energy when it's abundant and releasing it when needed, the grid can accommodate a higher share of clean energy, which reduces greenhouse gas emissions.

3. Peak demand reduction: Responding to price signals, battery arbitrage can strategically discharge stored energy during peak demand periods, alleviating strain on the grid. This reduces the need for new, expensive, and environmentally damaging peaking power plants.

4. Lower electricity costs: Battery arbitrage can contribute to lowering electricity prices for all users. By decreasing peak demand and minimizing the need for expensive peaking power plants, the average cost of electricity can be reduced in the long run, resulting in a more cost-efficient grid.

To harness these benefits, dynamic pricing structures like time-of-use tariffs or real-time pricing can be implemented by grid operators. These structures provide the right incentives for battery owners to participate in arbitrage, leading to a more efficient and flexible grid that's better equipped to handle the growing integration of renewable energy sources.
 
I don't really understand why utilities are adverse, but agree they are. If they set the price signal correctly there are real benefits for the networks to encourage arbitrage.

A few key advantages that I think are particularly noteworthy:

1. Grid stability improvement: Battery arbitrage helps maintain a balanced supply and demand of electricity by charging batteries during low-demand periods and discharging them during peak times. This reduces fluctuations and enhances grid reliability, minimizing the chances of blackouts.

2. Renewable energy integration: The practice facilitates better integration of intermittent renewable energy sources, like solar and wind, into the grid. By storing energy when it's abundant and releasing it when needed, the grid can accommodate a higher share of clean energy, which reduces greenhouse gas emissions.

3. Peak demand reduction: Responding to price signals, battery arbitrage can strategically discharge stored energy during peak demand periods, alleviating strain on the grid. This reduces the need for new, expensive, and environmentally damaging peaking power plants.

4. Lower electricity costs: Battery arbitrage can contribute to lowering electricity prices for all users. By decreasing peak demand and minimizing the need for expensive peaking power plants, the average cost of electricity can be reduced in the long run, resulting in a more cost-efficient grid.

To harness these benefits, dynamic pricing structures like time-of-use tariffs or real-time pricing can be implemented by grid operators. These structures provide the right incentives for battery owners to participate in arbitrage, leading to a more efficient and flexible grid that's better equipped to handle the growing integration of renewable energy sources.
All true! I love using zero grid power during peak periods, and in fact exporting to the grid when it is most heavily loaded. Solar with battery completely destroys the utilities concerns about the "duck curve", the daily mismatch between solar production and power consumption.

And, don't forget about Virtual Power Plant, a program activated when PG&E could not generate as much power as it's customers are consuming. Rather than starting rolling blackouts, all of our Tesla VPP PowerWalls discharge onto the grid. Last year we helped prevent blackouts on around ten hot summer evenings, and were compensated $2 per kWh we supplied to the grid.

I am also a fan of NEM, net electric metering, whereby in effect we can import for free power we have exported to the grid. It is revenue neutral for the utility, and in fact saves them money. The point was to encourage solar. So the Calf utilities lobbied and succeeded in killing NEM earlier this year.

Why, you wonder. Solar, like energy conservation (think LED lights, home insulation, efficient appliances, etc) reduce demand for electricity. For utilities, the represents a lost revenue opportunity. Solar is a biggie, because a typical residential system generates about as much as the home consumes over the course of a year. So, for utilities, solar is the enemy.

Batteries are a slightly different story, but under TOU rates, battery owners can reduce their electric bills, i.e. reduce utility income. Utilities are guaranteed profits under the regulations, so the more they get to supply, and the higher the peak demand, the more profit they get. It is a perverse motivation, but strong. Hence the massive lobbying and political contributions to capture the regulators.
 
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Only thing I thought about reading your comment was I thought the major IOUs make $$ from infrastucture projects? It's not about how much they can supply since for them, they just pass on whatever cost the power/gas is. That's what I saw during that massive gas price increase back in December was it?

IOUs from what I remember, makes a % of whatever infrastruture spent they build out. They don't care about energy cost because it's a pass through. They buy it from so and so, just charge everyone else whatever those rates are (ultimately). If rates go up, hey, CPUC, look, we paid so and so this much for power, we need to raise rates.

This is why they are hell bent on building their own massive energy storage, why they like massive long transmission lines, etc...

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but that's what I've read/understand.
 
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Only thing I thought about reading your comment was I thought the major IOUs make $$ from infrastucture projects? It's not about how much they can supply since for them, they just pass on whatever cost the power/gas is. That's what I saw during that massive gas price increase back in December was it?

IOUs from what I remember, makes a % of whatever infrastruture spent they build out. They don't care about energy cost because it's a pass through. They buy it from so and so, just charge everyone else whatever those rates are (ultimately). If rates go up, hey, CPUC, look, we paid so and so this much for power, we need to raise rates.

This is why they are hell bent on building their own massive energy storage, why they like massive long transmission lines, etc...

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but that's what I've read/understand.
Right now PG&E is making money through fuel reduction and tree trimming programs in my area. And the more inefficient their subcontractors are the more money they make. At least it appear that way.
 
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Solar with battery completely destroys the utilities concerns about the "duck curve", the daily mismatch between solar production and power consumption.
Yes, here is my inverse duck curve which is totally driven by my retailers wholesale price signal. Amber Electric in Australia.

Screenshot_20230509-053714.png
 
I don't really understand why utilities are adverse, but agree they are. If they set the price signal correctly there are real benefits for the networks to encourage arbitrage.
One other observation: solar and battery customers are on the same rate plans as other customers. We do have special tariffs (e.g. NEM) which deal with credit for our exports. But the pricing signals are designed more to encourage off peak consumption. Batteries, charged by solar or from the grid, allow one to draw from the grid only during off peak times, hence reducing the electric bill. But utilities don't profit as much, so they make it as complicated and difficult as there regulators will let them. Utilities would prefer to own any batteries and solar themselves, and profit from any cost savings that these provide, rather than encourage consumers to make their own power.

Or, as Navin, played by Steve Martin in The Jerk says, "Oh, I get it! It's a profit deal!"
 
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I don't really understand why utilities are adverse, but agree they are. If they set the price signal correctly there are real benefits for the networks to encourage arbitrage.

A few key advantages that I think are particularly noteworthy:

1. Grid stability improvement: Battery arbitrage helps maintain a balanced supply and demand of electricity by charging batteries during low-demand periods and discharging them during peak times. This reduces fluctuations and enhances grid reliability, minimizing the chances of blackouts.

2. Renewable energy integration: The practice facilitates better integration of intermittent renewable energy sources, like solar and wind, into the grid. By storing energy when it's abundant and releasing it when needed, the grid can accommodate a higher share of clean energy, which reduces greenhouse gas emissions.

3. Peak demand reduction: Responding to price signals, battery arbitrage can strategically discharge stored energy during peak demand periods, alleviating strain on the grid. This reduces the need for new, expensive, and environmentally damaging peaking power plants.

4. Lower electricity costs: Battery arbitrage can contribute to lowering electricity prices for all users. By decreasing peak demand and minimizing the need for expensive peaking power plants, the average cost of electricity can be reduced in the long run, resulting in a more cost-efficient grid.

To harness these benefits, dynamic pricing structures like time-of-use tariffs or real-time pricing can be implemented by grid operators. These structures provide the right incentives for battery owners to participate in arbitrage, leading to a more efficient and flexible grid that's better equipped to handle the growing integration of renewable energy sources.
Your point 3 strongly supports your point 4. Peak load on the grid determines the amount of generation and transmission capacity that must be installed and maintained. But the peak only happens for a few minutes each year, and is many times higher than the average load. With storage distributed at or near to the points of consumption, the capital and maintenance cost of generation and transmission could be greatly reduced, saving money for all consumers. But that would be a lost profit opportunity for the utilities, so they don't like it.

Regulations which set utility prices to specific profit percentages creates a perverse incentive, rewarding utility shareholders for increasing utility's costs.
 
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Non-bypassable charges. They are a collection of charges that add up to around 3 cents/kWh. They are a normal part of the cost of electricity but for NEM customers they must be paid on every kWh taken from the grid and cannot be offset by credits for power sent back to the grid.

Generally speaking there is not a financial benefit from running in self powered mode. Even through you avoid paying the NBCs you end up having to use more power due to the round trip losses in charging/discharging the powerwall plus any additional wear and tear on the powerwall. I run self powered mode most of the year just because I value directly using the energy I generate.
What if you could zero your electric bill in self powered mode simply by exporting excess solar power? Wouldn't that actually result in fewer charge/discharge cycles? And with less headache, just set it and forget it. But with arbitrage you are forcing the batteries to discharge/charge every day even when you are already overproducing from solar.

I’m on LADWP and I have all the options enabled (had to call them to get them to enable). I’m on TOU and have been arbitraging peak/off peak since the options were enabled.

This ensures my power bill is 0 even when production is low
For anyone else wondering about LADWP, I can confirm. I called Tesla today and in just a few minutes I had the "Energy Exports" option available in the app.

Question for @Red_DS, would you mind sharing your settings to maximize arbitrage since we're both on LADWP?
 
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What if you could zero your electric bill in self powered mode simply by exporting excess solar power? Wouldn't that actually result in fewer charge/discharge cycles? And with less headache, just set it and forget it. But with arbitrage you are forcing the batteries to discharge/charge every day even when you are already overproducing from solar.
Self powered mode runs the house even when the TOU rate is lower. Under NEM1,2 at least, exporting during peak periods gets more credit than avoiding off peak consumption saves.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but that's what I've read/understand.
I have read that too. But the PG&E negotiates the purchase agreements with power generation companies, so there is plenty of room for hanky panky.

But your point is important. Solar with storage decreases the peak demand on transmission and generation, especially those speaker plants which are needed only a few hours per year. Think huge capital cost sitting there waiting all year for a heat wave. Even as pricy as storage is, it has to be cheaper, and more useful for grid stability, than peakers.
 
Self powered mode runs the house even when the TOU rate is lower. Under NEM1,2 at least, exporting during peak periods gets more credit than avoiding off peak consumption saves.
Right, but what if you are producing enough solar that you never need to need to take more power than you give?

If I export 1000kwh but only import 950kwh what difference does it make how much credit I have? If I export at a higher rate than I import I don't get to pocket the difference.

In this scenario (1000 out/950 in) it seems like arbitrage only complicates things because now I have to make sure I'm only exporting at peak and importing off peak, otherwise I could end up under water if I import at peak and export off peak.
 
Right, but what if you are producing enough solar that you never need to need to take more power than you give?

If I export 1000kwh but only import 950kwh what difference does it make how much credit I have? If I export at a higher rate than I import I don't get to pocket the difference.

In this scenario (1000 out/950 in) it seems like arbitrage only complicates things because now I have to make sure I'm only exporting at peak and importing off peak, otherwise I could end up under water if I import at peak and export off peak.

I've posted about this before, but if you are a net generator, exporting during on-peak, like you say only cycles your batteries faster/more often and has little/no benefit as you will only end up getting paid $0.04 - $0.08 or whatever low amount it is now. There are some that are in VPP and get $2/kWh or something, but I think in the grand scheme of things (and all the wealthy people here), it's just a talking point and does nothing really for their finances getting a few hundred bucks. Downsides are more cycling, giving IOUs/Tesla control of their powerwall (yeah, you can set a reserve), less power if there was an outage, and probably others.

You might as well just set a higher reserve for possible power outages and not worry about it so once you're off-peak, pull from the grid if you have to at that point. I think you said you have no ToU so at that point, it's just about what you use vs. export/generate.

I just go self power to think/plan how possible it is to eventually cut the grid completely.
 
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Right, but what if you are producing enough solar that you never need to need to take more power than you give?

If I export 1000kwh but only import 950kwh what difference does it make how much credit I have? If I export at a higher rate than I import I don't get to pocket the difference.

In this scenario (1000 out/950 in) it seems like arbitrage only complicates things because now I have to make sure I'm only exporting at peak and importing off peak, otherwise I could end up under water if I import at peak and export off peak.
As Sunwarriors said, that is a different situation. First, we need to be careful about the time frame we are considering. And what region we are considering. PG&E's NEM1,2 has (for those of us grandfathered in) a monthly limit and an annual limit on how many kWh you can get retail credit for. The monthly one limits you to how much solar you can produce. The annual one limits the retail credits to the amount kWh you re-import, the call it net excess generation or some such, and instead of retail, the credit rate is based on their average wholesale cost of power, IIRC. The tariffs are published online, but are written to be a confusing and obscure as possible. Best taken with a good dose of scotch.

NEM is all about a customer exporting and reimporting their solar. Exporting during the day, importing at night. Exporting in the summer, importing in the winter. (Well, at least it was about that till the CPUC killed it here in Calif, but that is the subject of a different forum.) It was really very clever, reducing the size and cost of solar in a way that was revenue neutral. Those retail credits for export were instantly and completely offset by the retail cost to our non-solar neighbors. No fuel cost or transmission load for the utility, the power just went from one house to another nearby. It meant that we would size our systems to cover our average annual consumption (or some % of that) rather than sizing to fulfill needs during the winter's short, cloudy days. But to keep it fair to the utility, the retail credits only applied to kWh which were both exported and imported. Hence the very complicated tariffs.

All of which makes sizing a solar system tricky. You get a good return only if your true-up credit matches the sum of your monthly minimum, I think. I'm not sure, having not yet gone through a NEM2 true-up. And I have not even tried to read the NEM3 tariffs.

Anyway, as you and others have said, if your solar production over the course of the year exceeds your consumption, the the arbitrage is not effective. The same also applies to credits which exceed the cost due over the year. If the cumulative credit at the end of the year is more than the total cost, they just set take away the credit and sreset the cumulative to zero to begin the next true-up year.
 
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