Nissan Leaf

[gregincal]

That makes sense, but what does everyone predict will happen if that's the case? I think Nissan beats in sales at that point. I'm all for Tesla having the better sales, I am an investor, but I could see Nissan beating them. More people could save on gas and get basically the same amount of miles for less. Now there would always be those few that want style over price, but for the "masses", I bet it's Nissan.

I'd be fine with that (although just for the record what I want is a car that drives better for my mountain highway commute. Style is strictly secondary.)

- - - Updated - - -

If the GenIII tries to be BMW or Infiniti then it will never be a big part of the market. I find the people who want Tesla to remain its cache as a luxury manufacturer short sighted.

I don't believe they need to be only a luxury manufacturer, but it's completely clear that Gen III is a BMW 3 series competitor. What happens beyond that is a little unclear.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

The one significant reason that I'd get a Gen 3 instead of a long-range LEAF - apart from looks, performance etc. - is Tesla's Supercharger network. I'd rather not go searching for Chademo stations; Tesla's starting to get way ahead on that front.

 

[brianman]

Unless she's a giant the car doesn't look that big:

I'll most certainly get in trouble for this observation, but I can't resist.

The camera positioning is well placed to avoid a risqué reflection. (Rotate the image 180 degrees in your favorite imaging program to see what I mean.)

I don't know if it was intended, but overall I like the artistic effect that you can piece together the figure by combining the reflection with the non-reflected portion.



As far estimating vehicle size, I would start with the model of tires and then do math.

 

[EVNow]

The one significant reason that I'd get a Gen 3 instead of a long-range LEAF - apart from looks, performance etc. - is Tesla's Supercharger network. I'd rather not go searching for Chademo stations; Tesla's starting to get way ahead on that front.

Not sure about CA now - but in WA CHAdeMO is way ahead of superchargers. Once the NRG settlement is implemented, I guess CA will be the same case.

 

[cwerdna]

Not sure about CA now - but in WA CHAdeMO is way ahead of superchargers. Once the NRG settlement is implemented, I guess CA will be the same case.

CHAdeMO situation in the SF Bay Area isn't that great. It's a YMMV as to how friendly Nissan dealers are in terms of using their CHAdeMO chargers and their hours. https://www.facebook.com/groups/BayLeafs/permalink/558036380920694/ reported "Spent 30 min in line for QC at Boardwalk. There are five more LEAFs behind us." At least I leased my Leaf from them and where they're at (~35 miles from home) is semi-useful for me but I'd hate to be #6 in line...

The formerly free Blink QCs have mostly/all (?) gone to $5/session, which sucks. It'd be better if they were metered by time and/or kwh. And, who knows what will happen if Ecotality goes bankrupt?

If I wanted to go in the other direction to say Monterey (~65 miles way) or Carmel (~69 miles), there are no CHAdeMO stations on the way or there, at all. There are some Tesla Superchargers in Gilroy, which are both on the way to those towns. Both those towns are near Pebble Beach.

Clint Eastwood was once mayor of Carmel. But, I digress...

 

[Rifleman]

It looks like Nissan is starting to talk a little bit about their future Leaf plans. The current road map has the range of current gen leaf extending to a real world 200 km (125 miles), and the next gen leaf coming out in 2016. Apparently they are now modifying the battery with every model year, and plan to keep the same number of cells and physical dimensions, and to improve range through improved energy density. according to this article, the Infiniti LE, as well as a sub-leaf city EV are also still intended for eventual release.

It looks like 2016 could be a big year for EV's, with the Tesla Gen III, the next gen Leaf, and the next gen Volt all expected to be hitting the road in 2016.

LEAF range will grow - motoring.com.au

 

[ggies07]

It looks like Nissan is starting to talk a little bit about their future Leaf plans. The current road map has the range of current gen leaf extending to a real world 200 km (125 miles), and the next gen leaf coming out in 2016. Apparently they are now modifying the battery with every model year, and plan to keep the same number of cells and physical dimensions, and to improve range through improved energy density. according to this article, the Infiniti LE, as well as a sub-leaf city EV are also still intended for eventual release.

It looks like 2016 could be a big year for EV's, with the Tesla Gen III, the next gen Leaf, and the next gen Volt all expected to be hitting the road in 2016.

LEAF range will grow - motoring.com.au

Sweetness, good to hear! Thanks for the link.

 

[ggies07]

Anyone who lives in Texas and has a LEAF, this is pretty cool!

Nissan Channels Tesla, Offers Free Leaf Charging in Texas - Bloomberg

 

[constraint]

I think the Leaf has the potential to be a Gen III competitor, but Nissan has taken the road of making a compliance car then telling everyone that wants to buy one that you dont need the most important thing that people care about (range). This isnt just a problem with a leaf, but with their minivan. Why else would they come out with a bigger vehicle and still not increase the pack size or increase the motor size (80 kw). Then they develop a box van prototype and while yes they put 3 leaf packs in it for 60 miles range they still only used an 80 kw motor (in a box van?). What about Nissan's race car.... nope still 80 kw motor and 20 minutes run time.

Tesla tries to remove every excuse that people make about EV's head on, while Nissan gives the bare minimum and tells us to embrace the imperfections. Nissan has the platform but lacks the will to really try.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The Infiniti LE (which was based on the Leaf) was supposed to be a Tesla competitor. But it was delayed and probably will be released with the next gen Leaf (I think Infiniti realize the range was too low for a luxury vehicle).

 

[aaronw]

I know range is a serious issue for the Leaf. A friend of mine in the Bay Area leases one and it seems he's always worried about where he can get a charge to get to his next destination just around the Bay. I'm glad that Tesla uses their own standard for their Superchargers otherwise they would all be clogged up with Leafs and other low-range vehicles. As it is, if I actually do need a charge at a public station they're all clogged with Leafs, Volts and other low-range cars. I usually avoid using Blink or Chargepoint since it's rather expensive compared to just charging at home.

 

[EVNow]

I think the Leaf has the potential to be a Gen III competitor, but Nissan has taken the road of making a compliance car ....

LOL. You don't spend $5 Billion to make a compliance car.

Tesla tries to remove every excuse that people make about EV's head on..

You apparently think average American can afford a $65k car.

 

[TEG]

I know range is a serious issue for the Leaf. A friend of mine in the Bay Area leases one and it seems he's always worried about where he can get a charge to get to his next destination just around the Bay...

I have about 25K miles on my LEAF in the Bay Area and really don't think/worry much about range anymore. Once I set my expectations on a useful daily routine, the range issue doesn't really come up. Sure, once and a while something comes up a little further away and I have to do a little planning, but my point is that once you get your expectations set and are willing to stick to a routine, even the LEAFs range can be quite useful and not a hassle.

 

[TonyWilliams]

LOL. You don't spend $5 Billion to make a compliance car.


You apparently think average American can afford a $65k car.

Exactly. Nissan is in this game for the long haul, however their car is (by definition) a CARB-ZEV compliance car. What's different is that Nissan grossly exceeds strict compliance motivations and actions, and is actually in a position to SELL those credits.

Here's my list of which car companies are most militant and hostile about California Air Resources Board - Zero Emissions Vehicle (CARB-ZEV) compliance, and which ones really want to sell battery electric cars:

.. Manufacturer .. Model(s) .... A ....... B ...... C ...... D ..... E ..... F
1. Honda - Fit EV / FCEV ..... YES ..... YES ... YES ... YES ... NO ... YES
2. Toyota - Rav4 EV / FCEV... NO ..... YES ... YES ... YES ...YES ... YES
3. Chry/Fiat - Fiat 500 ......... NO ..... YES ... YES ... YES ... NO ... YES
4. GM - Spark EV ................. NO ..... YES ... YES .... NO ... NO ... YES**
5. Ford - Focus EV ............... NO ..... YES ... NO ... YES ... NO ... YES
6. Daimler - Smart/B-Class . NO ..... YES .... NO .... NO ... NO ... YES
7. BMW - i3 ........................ NO ..... NO .... NO .... NO ... NO ... NO (Frankenplug)
8. Nissan - LEAF ................. NO ..... NO .... NO .... NO ... NO ... NO (CHAdeMO)


Can't yet rank:


V.VW - eGolf ........................ ??? ..... YES .... ??? .... NO ... ??? ... ??? (Frankenplug?)
X. Hyundai - FCEV ................ ??? ..... ??? .... ??? .... NO ... ??? .... NO (Hydrogen)
Y. Kia - Soul EV .................... ??? ..... YES .... ??? .... NO ... ??? ... NO (CHAdeMO)
Z. Mazda - Demio EV ........... ??? ..... YES .... ??? .... NO ... ??? .... NO (CHAdeMO)


** GM will eventually have a Frankenplug


So, here is the criteria:

A. Lease Only to be crushed at lease return (no sales whatsoever)?
B. Converted car (not built on a purpose built EV chassis)?
C. Only sold in CARB states (not what the manufacturer says, but what they actually do). Only sold in minimal numbers to meet CARB requirements?
D. Loudly dismiss EV's and the CARB program, and generally announce how FEW they will produce?
E. Harass owners when their car is out of state with a warranty claim?
F. Without quick charge access on the compliance car?

************

First, let's be clear about the rules.

1. NOT EVERY CAR MAKER MUST COMPLY WITH CARB-ZEV. Currently, there are six "Large Vehicle Manufacturers" (LVM) that must produce Zero Emission Vehicles (ZEV) if they want to sell lots of oil burning cars in California, model years 2012-2014:

USA Big Three LVM's:

GM - about 2500 Spark EV's
Ford - maybe 1500-2000 Ford Focus EV's
Chrysler/Fiat - 491 Fiat 500 for 2013 model year confirmed

Japan Big Three LVM's:

Toyota - 2600 Rav4 EV's announced
Nissan - 75,000 LEAF's so far!!
Honda - 1100 Fit EV's announced

For the 2015 and later model years, all these vehicle manufacturers must comply:

BMW, Fiat/Chrysler, Ford, General Motors, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Daimler/Mercedes, Nissan, Toyota, and Volkswagen must comply with the new 2012 and later CARB-ZEV requirements. Four additional manufacturers would also be required to comply with the ZEV requirements, but would be allowed to meet their obligation with PHEVs (so they aren't included, since they won't make a true ZEV).

Note that neither Mitsubishi, nor Tesla are on the list, since neither car company is big enough to make the list, according to CARB.

 

[cwerdna]

I have about 25K miles on my LEAF in the Bay Area and really don't think/worry much about range anymore. Once I set my expectations on a useful daily routine, the range issue doesn't really come up. Sure, once and a while something comes up a little further away and I have to do a little planning, but my point is that once you get your expectations set and are willing to stick to a routine, even the LEAFs range can be quite useful and not a hassle.

I've only had my Leaf for 2 months and ~2K miles so far. I agree w/the above.

I've only had range anxiety maybe 2-3x, so far. One would've been mitigated if I'd just charged my car to 100% instead of 80%. I'd originally thought I was going from south SJ to Milpitas, instead of Union city. But, when I learned of having to go further, I knew I couldn't replenish charge quickly enough w/120 volt charging (@home) for that trip. It's a long story, having related last minute changes and uncertain plans.

Another time, I had a lot of driving in a day and I could've mitigated it by paying $0.49/kwh to L2 charge at Stanford Mall (luckily there were spots available) as I was spending some time at that mall anyway. But, I decided to forgo that and instead stop at my work to L2 charge a bit (it's free and was on the way home anyway) on the way home. Maybe it helped my employer a bit, as I did get some work done, while waiting.

Other than that, not really. My work is fortunately at the junction of 2 highways and is along the way home for many routes. Me having the 6 kW OBC helps, as L2 charging is much quicker than for those w/the 3.3 kW OBC.

For my commute, it's only ~12 miles each way. Coupled w/free charging at work, I don't sweat it. I could do 3 roundtrips before needing to charge, but w/serious range anxiety on the last leg.

For me, if the Leaf's range won't cut it at all and I cannot depend on public infrastructure (being available, convenient, etc.) or can't wait around, I just drive the Prius... Example would be for me would be going to SF. It's 60 miles, one way, almost all highway. I can make it there but can't make it back w/o some charging along the way there/back.

Boardwalk Nissan in Redwood City (where I leased from) has a free CHAdeMO DC FC, but I can't depend on it being available/working/not having a line. I posted about someone's situation there in post 1845.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Exactly. Nissan is in this game for the long haul, however their car is (by definition) a CARB-ZEV compliance car. What's different is that Nissan grossly exceeds strict compliance motivations and actions, and is actually in a position to SELL those credits.

Here's my list of which car companies are most militant and hostile about California Air Resources Board - Zero Emissions Vehicle (CARB-ZEV) compliance, and which ones really want to sell battery electric cars:

Rank	Manufacturer	Model(s)	A	B	C	D	E	F
1.	Honda	Fit EV / FCEV	YES	YES	YES	YES	NO	YES
2.	Toyota	Rav4 EV / FCEV	NO	YES	YES	YES	YES	YES
3.	Chry/Fiat	Fiat 500	NO	YES	YES	YES	NO	YES
4.	GM	Spark EV	NO	YES	YES	NO	NO	YES**
5.	Ford	Focus EV	NO	YES	NO	YES	NO	YES
6.	Daimler	Smart/B-Class	NO	YES	NO	NO	NO	YES
7.	BMW	i3	NO	NO	NO	NO	NO	NO (Frankenplug)
8.	Nissan	LEAF	NO	NO	NO	NO	NO	NO (CHAdeMO)
Can't yet rank:
V.	VW	eGolf	???	YES	???	NO	???	???(Frankenplug?)
W.	Hyundai	FCEV	???	???	???	NO	???	NO (Hydrogen)
X.	Kia	Soul EV	???	YES	???	NO	???	NO (CHAdeMO)
Y.	Mazda	Demio EV	???	YES	???	NO	???	NO (CHAdeMO)

** GM will eventually have a Frankenplug

So, here are the criteria:

A. Lease Only to be crushed at lease return (no sales whatsoever)?
B. Converted car (not built on a purpose built EV chassis)?
C. Only sold in CARB states (not what the manufacturer says, but what they actually do). Only sold in minimal numbers to meet CARB requirements?
D. Loudly dismiss EV's and the CARB program, and generally announce how FEW they will produce?
E. Harass owners when their car is out of state with a warranty claim?
F. Without quick charge access on the compliance car?

************

First, let's be clear about the rules.

1. NOT EVERY CAR MAKER MUST COMPLY WITH CARB-ZEV. Currently, there are six "Large Vehicle Manufacturers" (LVM) that must produce Zero Emission Vehicles (ZEV) if they want to sell lots of oil burning cars in California, model years 2012-2014:

USA Big Three LVM's:

GM - about 2500 Spark EV's
Ford - maybe 1500-2000 Ford Focus EV's
Chrysler/Fiat - 491 Fiat 500 for 2013 model year confirmed

Japan Big Three LVM's:

Toyota - 2600 Rav4 EV's announced
Nissan - 75,000 LEAF's so far!!
Honda - 1100 Fit EV's announced

For the 2015 and later model years, all these vehicle manufacturers must comply:

BMW, Fiat/Chrysler, Ford, General Motors, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Daimler/Mercedes, Nissan, Toyota, and Volkswagen must comply with the new 2012 and later CARB-ZEV requirements. Four additional manufacturers would also be required to comply with the ZEV requirements, but would be allowed to meet their obligation with PHEVs (so they aren't included, since they won't make a true ZEV).

Note that neither Mitsubishi, nor Tesla are on the list, since neither car company is big enough to make the list, according to CARB.

My name is ItsNotAboutTheMoney and I am a tableaholic.

 

[constraint]

LOL. You don't spend $5 Billion to make a compliance car.


You apparently think average American can afford a $65k car.

Of course they cant afford a 65k car, but for only 5k more than the base leaf (27k) you can add at least another 10 KwH for a total of around ~120 miles. I have talked with so many people in my state and everyone of them says they would need more range before they would ever consider an EV. 150 mile range was the point where 30 percent of the people i talked to would consider an EV. 200 miles almost 80 percent start thinking thats acceptable. When someone hears 70 highway (84 epa) and possibly down to 50 during a MN winter everyone shuts off.

 

[jerry33]

I have talked with so many people in my state and everyone of them says they would need more range before they would ever consider an EV.

Of course. The car manufacturers know this so they make EVs with limited range to keep their ICE sales almost intact. Even Nissan hedged by producing a car that's only viable for a small subset of car owners. Of course, a small subset is still a large number, but if the Leaf had a 200 mile range, they couldn't keep them in stock.

 

[dhrivnak]

I am not sure the Leaf needs 200 miles but 100 miles seems to be a magic number for the people I talk to. RARELY will a person go over 100 miles around town, but they think they often do. I think it is just psychological to get in the triple digits. The other thing I think Nissan could do is offer a sport version with better get up and go. I hear they already have the kit available in Japan.

I really do not think people need either of the above but they think they do and even if it were just an option I think it would bring more into the showroom.

 

[jerry33]

I am not sure the Leaf needs 200 miles but 100 miles seems to be a magic number for the people I talk to. RARELY will a person go over 100 miles around town.

Problem here is that the Leaf was introduced as having a 100 mile range and many Leaf drivers apparently can't get over 50 miles if conditions aren't perfect. A 200 mile range means you will always have a 100 mile range. If you have a 51 mile round trip commute, like I do, then a problem with charging, or a power outage will cause you not to get through the second day--and power outages aren't that uncommon with the deregulation of the utility companies and the outsourcing of the electrical infrastructure servicing. I just don't buy that most people will accept a 100 mile range car.